I tried it
It worked for me

I said "Gluten is the component of wheat flour that makes it raise".
As far as I know, there is no other component in wheat flour( or any
other flour for that matter)  that significantly contributes to yeast
breads rising. Non-wheat flours contain no gluten, so the more of that
"healther stuff" you throw in, the denser the bread gets (all other
things being equal). Adding some extra gluten flour can help.

Stephen M. Powell

=
=>I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
=>grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
=> The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
=> I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
=>recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
=>I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE one
=>pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one pound loaf
=>resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a little hard on
=>the stomach.  Does anyone have a recipe that works for a diabetic using
=>a bread machine.?
=
=One work around is to substitute some gluten flour (around four
=tablespoons) for part of the whole grain flour. Gluten is the
=component of wheat flour that makes it raise

Er, not quite.  Gluten is the component that makes dough sticky, that makes
kneaded dough elastic, and that keeps the resulting bread from falling apart.
It DOES help make bread rise better, since glutenous dough is better able to
trap the CO2 released by the yeast, but to say that it’s the component that
makes the bread rise is something of an overstatement.

 and is availible but is
=hard to find. You will probably have to go to a health food store to
=find it.
=
=Stephen M. Powell
=
=                         Interested in Alternative Healing?
=                             Visit   "The Wellness Zone"
=                 http://www.sfol.com/sfol/wellness/wellness.html
=
=
—————————————————————————
I  try  very  hard  to say exactly what I mean.  I’d appreciate it if you’d
bear that in mind and not try to "interpret"  my  posts  to  fit  your  own
preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread.  Remember:  If you
throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

> In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960122110421.2630I-100…@crash.cts.com>,
> Michel Martin Devine  <m…@cts.com> wrote:

> >> Mickey, why don’t you try actually reading a thread before posting your usual
> >> bullshit?  The situation described was one in which a large amount of honey was
> >> used in the recipe.  Considerably larger than the amount used when the person
> >> was not using a bread machine.  When he cut the amount of honey back to what
> >> he’d normally use, the bread didn’t rise properly.  That recipe was clearly
> >> using an excess of sugar to achieve a rapid rise.  Now, if you don’t want to
> >> use an excess of sugar, you can either use more yeast or a longer rise time (as
> >> I pointed out in this thread).  But the particular recipe under discussion was
> >> using an excess of sugar.

> >> Once again, Mickey, you demonstrate your proclivity to make overly broad
> >> generalizations based on your extremely limited knowledge of a field.

> >Here again we have this poor dumb cluck talking through his hat!

> How so?

> >Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar.  And
> >that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow.  They don’t
> >work that way, Lydik.

> They do, up to certain limits.  One of the limiting factors on the rate
> of yeast growth is how much sugar they can get inside them per unit
> time.  This depends both on their own biology and on the amount of sugar
> available.

> >They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job.  The reason the
> >dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
> >to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
> >possibility)

> Don’t claim my testimony as supporting your dumbness.

Below, you offer your own same testimony as a possible explanation to
Ken’s problem.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

> Yeast do indeed, up to certain limits, grow faster in higher
> concentrations of sugar.  If they’re growing slower, you obviously need
> to allow longer rising times.

> >OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
> >comes from myself the winemaker).  The yeast "sticking" is the curse
> >of working with them, and not even biochemists know all the reasons for
> >this.  Unsticking the yeast (getting them to start reproducing again) is a
> >real art, but they NEVER throw more sugar at them.

> I believe that the ways you treat yeast are different in wine-making,
> because you start out with a higher sugar content solution, the yeast
> stay alive longer, and over the aging period of the wine, the alcohol
> content becomes high enough to kill the yeast.  Also, although I’m less
> sure of it, I believe that in wine-making, since the bottles are sealed,
> the yeast are working more-or-less anaerobically.  (Yeast can do that.)  

You are confusing the secondary fermentation process, where the very last
remnants of the sugar are finally reduced to alcohol (which is done
in sealed kegs without access to the air and its airborne bacteria which
could attack the alcohol and reduce it to acetic acid or vinegar) and the
PRIMARY fermentation step that happens to be carried out in the open air
(not for the benefit of the yeast, which are always largely anerobic, but
for the reason of the furious and frothing process at that stage that is
taking place.)

> All in all, this makes the situation much different, and I would think
> that the differences between the wine environment and the bread
> environment account both for this "sticking" phenomenon which I have
> never encountered and the need or lack thereof to add additional sugar.  
> (Grape juice and wine both have very high sugar contents — perhaps even
> near the sugar concentration that will kill yeast or severely retard
> their growth, I’m not sure.  Flour doesn’t have nearly as much simple
> sugar content, and yeast don’t digest starches very fast.)

> The use of an excess of sugar to speed up the operation of yeast is well
> understood — I did a good deal of research on commercial fuel alcohol
> plants this summer, and the ideal concentration of sugar is an important
> factor in the design of the plant — they deliberately put an excess of
> sugar in the fermentation mash even though they’ll have to retrieve it
> later in the process *because it makes the yeast grow faster*.

Yes, but all I pointed out to Lydik was that his "if some is good, more
is better" philosophy didn’t apply here.  True, a certain critical amount
of sugar IS needed for the yeast.  But consider the making of sourdough
French bread.  In this case, the only sugar that the yeast have access to
is the rather paltry amount that has decomposed from the wheat starch
present.  Much, MUCH different from the concentration of sugar provided
by the *honey* in Ken’s recipes.  And as far as the additional time
required to make sourdough from relatively sugar-free ingredients, it is
just a matter of a couple of hours or so.  I have watched bakers make the
stuff: it’s only a morning to mid-afternoon operation starting with the
mixing of the dough to getting the bread out of the oven (my own personal
observation and experience).

Which is why I cited your most reasonable comment that perhaps Ken
needed to allow a little more time for the yeast to do its job.

> I’ve never, in my breadmaking experience, had yeast get "stuck" — I’ve
> had problems when making oatmeal bread with killing it off due to
> excessive heat, but never just simple inexplicable not working.

> Oh, that reminds me: another reason for bread not rising right is the
> wrong temperature.  Yeast (at least the kind used for bread-making) is
> happiest at a little above body temperature.  Lower temps (down to near
> freezing, I believe) simple slow its growth.  Higher temps can kill it —
> if water that temperature would burn your skin, then it’ll kill yeast.

All very true.  However, in winemaking the yeast is normally worked
at a rather high room temperature, in the 70s or even 80s in the warm
California autumns.  But below 60 degrees, the yeast appear to have left
for Florida.

> >Just another example of Lydik taking disjointed facts from his cement
> >mixer mentality (where nothing fits together with any coherence), and
> >*leaping* to totally unwarranted conclusions.

> Um, I think that’s you, actually.  You’re using your experience with
> yeast in one particular setting, with little theoretical background, to
> draw wrong conclusions about its action in other settings.

Not really.  It is not THEORY to point out that above a certain point
of sugar concentration, throwing sugar at yeast to make them reproductive
(as Lydik suggested) is not indicated.  And the levels of sugar concentration
of a dough with honey (itself over 80% sugar) that Ken was working with is
already way above the "starvation" level for yeast.

One work around is to substitute some gluten flour (around four
tablespoons) for part of the whole grain flour. Gluten is the
component of wheat flour that makes it raise and is availible but is
hard to find. You will probably have to go to a health food store to
find it.

Stephen M. Powell

                         Interested in Alternative Healing?
                             Visit   "The Wellness Zone"
                 http://www.sfol.com/sfol/wellness/wellness.html

>> Mickey, why don’t you try actually reading a thread before posting your usual
>> bullshit?  The situation described was one in which a large amount of honey was
>> used in the recipe.  Considerably larger than the amount used when the person
>> was not using a bread machine.  When he cut the amount of honey back to what
>> he’d normally use, the bread didn’t rise properly.  That recipe was clearly
>> using an excess of sugar to achieve a rapid rise.  Now, if you don’t want to
>> use an excess of sugar, you can either use more yeast or a longer rise time (as
>> I pointed out in this thread).  But the particular recipe under discussion was
>> using an excess of sugar.

>> Once again, Mickey, you demonstrate your proclivity to make overly broad
>> generalizations based on your extremely limited knowledge of a field.

>Here again we have this poor dumb cluck talking through his hat!

How so?

>Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar.  And
>that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow.  They don’t
>work that way, Lydik.

They do, up to certain limits.  One of the limiting factors on the rate
of yeast growth is how much sugar they can get inside them per unit
time.  This depends both on their own biology and on the amount of sugar
available.

>They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job.  The reason the
>dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
>to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
>possibility)

Don’t claim my testimony as supporting your dumbness.

Yeast do indeed, up to certain limits, grow faster in higher
concentrations of sugar.  If they’re growing slower, you obviously need
to allow longer rising times.

>OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
>comes from myself the winemaker).  The yeast "sticking" is the curse
>of working with them, and not even biochemists know all the reasons for
>this.  Unsticking the yeast (getting them to start reproducing again) is a
>real art, but they NEVER throw more sugar at them.

I believe that the ways you treat yeast are different in wine-making,
because you start out with a higher sugar content solution, the yeast
stay alive longer, and over the aging period of the wine, the alcohol
content becomes high enough to kill the yeast.  Also, although I’m less
sure of it, I believe that in wine-making, since the bottles are sealed,
the yeast are working more-or-less anaerobically.  (Yeast can do that.)  
All in all, this makes the situation much different, and I would think
that the differences between the wine environment and the bread
environment account both for this "sticking" phenomenon which I have
never encountered and the need or lack thereof to add additional sugar.  
(Grape juice and wine both have very high sugar contents — perhaps even
near the sugar concentration that will kill yeast or severely retard
their growth, I’m not sure.  Flour doesn’t have nearly as much simple
sugar content, and yeast don’t digest starches very fast.)

The use of an excess of sugar to speed up the operation of yeast is well
understood — I did a good deal of research on commercial fuel alcohol
plants this summer, and the ideal concentration of sugar is an important
factor in the design of the plant — they deliberately put an excess of
sugar in the fermentation mash even though they’ll have to retrieve it
later in the process *because it makes the yeast grow faster*.

I’ve never, in my breadmaking experience, had yeast get "stuck" — I’ve
had problems when making oatmeal bread with killing it off due to
excessive heat, but never just simple inexplicable not working.

Oh, that reminds me: another reason for bread not rising right is the
wrong temperature.  Yeast (at least the kind used for bread-making) is
happiest at a little above body temperature.  Lower temps (down to near
freezing, I believe) simple slow its growth.  Higher temps can kill it —
if water that temperature would burn your skin, then it’ll kill yeast.

>Just another example of Lydik taking disjointed facts from his cement
>mixer mentality (where nothing fits together with any coherence), and
>*leaping* to totally unwarranted conclusions.

Um, I think that’s you, actually.  You’re using your experience with
yeast in one particular setting, with little theoretical background, to
draw wrong conclusions about its action in other settings.

                                                        Rachel
—
"That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you
have to say it with *rhythm*).  We could all just add these to our .sigs."
        – Marco Simons on net censorship

I never said vast amounts, Mickey.

=And that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow.

That’s pretty much true, Mickey.

=They don’t work that way, Lydik.

Yes they do, shit-for-brains.

=They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job.  The reason the
=dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
=to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
=possibility) OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
=comes from myself the winemaker).

Perhaps, then, Mickey, you’d care to explain why it was that with the recipe
with the larger amount of honey, the bread DID rise properly?
—————————————————————————
I  try  very  hard  to say exactly what I mean.  I’d appreciate it if you’d
bear that in mind and not try to "interpret"  my  posts  to  fit  your  own
preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread.  Remember:  If you
throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result.

>In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960122110421.2630I-100…@crash.cts.com>,

Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> writes:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

>=Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar.

>I never said vast amounts, Mickey.

>=And that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow.

>That’s pretty much true, Mickey.

>=They don’t work that way, Lydik.

>Yes they do, shit-for-brains.

>=They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job.  The reason the
>=dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
>=to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
>=possibility) OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
>=comes from myself the winemaker).

>Perhaps, then, Mickey, you’d care to explain why it was that with the
recipe
>with the larger amount of honey, the bread DID rise properly?
>————————————————————————-
—
>I  try  very  hard  to say exactly what I mean.  I’d appreciate it if
you’d
>bear that in mind and not try to "interpret"  my  posts  to  fit  your  
own
>preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread.  Remember:  If
you
>throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the

result.
       I seem to have started a bit of a feud here. Sorry about that.
 As to my progress with the bread making, the only solution that seems to
work is to run the machine in the dough only mode and allow more time for
rising. The only thing I have saved with this machine is thus moving the
dough from mixer/kneader that I had been using and letting it rise in a
bowl. Then of course I would have to form it into loaves before baking but
at least the loaves where conventional, dependable and I would have ten
times as many loaves for less electrical energy outlay than the bread
machine uses to produce one mishapen loaf.
   I can see that I need personal coaching here!!!!

Mickey, why don’t you try actually reading a thread before posting your usual
bullshit?  The situation described was one in which a large amount of honey was
used in the recipe.  Considerably larger than the amount used when the person
was not using a bread machine.  When he cut the amount of honey back to what
he’d normally use, the bread didn’t rise properly.  That recipe was clearly
using an excess of sugar to achieve a rapid rise.  Now, if you don’t want to
use an excess of sugar, you can either use more yeast or a longer rise time (as
I pointed out in this thread).  But the particular recipe under discussion was
using an excess of sugar.

Once again, Mickey, you demonstrate your proclivity to make overly broad
generalizations based on your extremely limited knowledge of a field.
—————————————————————————
I  try  very  hard  to say exactly what I mean.  I’d appreciate it if you’d
bear that in mind and not try to "interpret"  my  posts  to  fit  your  own
preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread.  Remember:  If you
throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result.

>On 17 Jan 1996, Speaker-to-Minerals wrote:

>> Actually, given the description of the problem, chances are that in the
>> recipe he’s talking about, quite a bit of the honey is NOT consumed by
>> the yeast.  To get the rapid rise he implies, you use a substantial
>> excess of sugar.

>Lydik, how do you explain the chemistry of making sourdough French bread?  I
>have been in the bakeries that make the genuine thing, and they
>demonstrate to me that NO sugar is involved at all, for to use sugar will
>defeat the sour taste that they are striving for.  Which is why I
>eat the stuff, and much more to my advantage than is the case of eating the
>honey laden bread widely found in the USA.

Presumably they let it rise longer, to give the yeasts a better go at the
sugars/starches in the flour.

                                                Rachel
                                                Who has been known to bake
—
"That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you
have to say it with *rhythm*).  We could all just add these to our .sigs."
        – Marco Simons on net censorship

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

> In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960117235857.22380F-100…@crash.cts.com>, Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> writes:
> =On 17 Jan 1996, Speaker-to-Minerals wrote:
> =
> => In article <4dca5c$…@news2.delphi.com>, LISA_P…@delphi.com writes:
> => =
> => =Quoting kmanton from a message in misc.health.diabetes
> => = km}I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
> => = km}grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
> => = km}The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
> => = km}I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
> => = km}recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
> => = km}I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE
> => = km}one pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one
> => = km}pound loaf resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a
> => = km}little hard on the stomach.  Does anyone have a recipe that works for
> => = km}a diabetic using a bread machine.?
> => =I use plain old breadmaker recipes with sugar or honey as called for.  I
> => =don’t see the reason for making bread any differently because I am
> => =diabetic.  Just follow the breadmachine recipes.  The yeast uses the honey
> => =or sugar for food so it sould not be a big factor.
> =>
> => Actually, given the description of the problem, chances are that in the recipe
> => he’s talking about, quite a bit of the honey is NOT consumed by the yeast.  To
> => get the rapid rise he implies, you use a substantial excess of sugar.
> =
> =Lydik, how do you explain the chemistry of making sourdough French bread?  I
> =have been in the bakeries that make the genuine thing, and they
> =demonstrate to me that NO sugar is involved at all, for to use sugar will
> =defeat the sour taste that they are striving for.  Which is why I
> =eat the stuff, and much more to my advantage than is the case of eating the
> =honey laden bread widely found in the USA.

> Mickey, why don’t you try actually reading a thread before posting your usual
> bullshit?  The situation described was one in which a large amount of honey was
> used in the recipe.  Considerably larger than the amount used when the person
> was not using a bread machine.  When he cut the amount of honey back to what
> he’d normally use, the bread didn’t rise properly.  That recipe was clearly
> using an excess of sugar to achieve a rapid rise.  Now, if you don’t want to
> use an excess of sugar, you can either use more yeast or a longer rise time (as
> I pointed out in this thread).  But the particular recipe under discussion was
> using an excess of sugar.

> Once again, Mickey, you demonstrate your proclivity to make overly broad
> generalizations based on your extremely limited knowledge of a field.

Here again we have this poor dumb cluck talking through his hat!

Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar.  And
that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow.  They don’t
work that way, Lydik.

They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job.  The reason the
dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
possibility) OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
comes from myself the winemaker).  The yeast "sticking" is the curse
of working with them, and not even biochemists know all the reasons for
this.  Unsticking the yeast (getting them to start reproducing again) is a
real art, but they NEVER throw more sugar at them.

Just another example of Lydik taking disjointed facts from his cement
mixer mentality (where nothing fits together with any coherence), and
*leaping* to totally unwarranted conclusions.