this is a test posting via e:mail
===================================================
Nut. J. Angel Ledesma S.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Instituto Nacional de Nutricion "Salvador Zubiran"
jlede…@spin.com.mx
A.P. 86-252, Mexico D.F., 14391 MEXICO
Human Nutrition, WEB: http://spin.com.mx/~jledesma
===================================================
I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE one
pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one pound loaf
resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a little hard on
the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for a diabetic using
a bread machine.?
Hi Ken.
Further to your request please find my favorite recipe for whole
wheat bread using a machine. However the best bread is made by hand
but a machine is very convenient. This way you have a fresh loft
every day. :-)
Whole wheat bread
This recipe is for a Bread making Machine.
Black&Decker or equivalent
This recipe makes a full size loaf of 1.5 lbs or 700g.
Whole wheat flour is low in gluten content. To make the bread rise we
have to ad all purpose flour which contains more gluten. Depending on
the gluten content, the yeast and the bread making machine you may
have to readjust the quantities until the bread looks good to you
The yeast used is Instant Quick-Rise from Fleischmann’s or equivalent.
When the yeast is fresh you only require 2 teaspoons when it becomes
older you need more!
Stone ground whole wheat flour has superior nutritive
value but requires more gluten (more white flour).
Produces 16 slices or more
INGREDIENTS
1 1/4 cups water
1 teaspoon sugar
1 tablespoon canola oil
1/2 teaspoon salt
2 cups whole wheat flour
1 cup all-purpose flour
2 teaspoons instant yeast
1) Measure ingredients into baking pan
Allow to cool before slicing (about 16 slices or more)
2) Insert baking pan securely into baking unit.
close lid
3) Select bread setting, white/wheat
fresh milk
although we are using water the setting is at fresh milk!
4) Push Start button.
5) The "complete " light flash when the bread is done.
6) Using oven mitts, remove pan from unit.
7) Remove bread from baking pan.
Source: Denis Marier, Fleischmann and Black&Decker
Page(s): 1 of 1
Date Published: Jan. 96
Amount Per Slice
Calories 91 Calories from Fat 11
Percent Total Calories From:
Fat 12% Protein 13% Carb. 75%
Nutrient Amount per % Daily
Serving Value
Total Fat 1 g 2%
Saturated Fat 0 g 1%
Cholesterol 0 mg 0%
Sodium 74 mg 3%
Total Carbohydrate 17 g 6%
Dietary Fiber 0 g 1%
Protein 3 g
Vitamin A 0% Vitamin C 0% Iron 4%
kman…@direct.ca (Ken Manton) wrote:
>I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
>grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
> The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
> I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
>recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
>I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE one
>pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one pound loaf
>resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a little hard on
>the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for a diabetic using
>a bread machine.?
Regards,
Denis Marier
mari…@mi.net
Rothesay, New Brunswick
Canada
Sounds to me like your yeast is being killed, most likely from
high heat either in the liquids added to the mix or the machine
not functioning properly and overheating the dough/mix.
I’ve never noticed much, if any, difference using the bread
making machine or the "hands-on" method. BTW, honey makes a
great tasting bread (or most anything else!) but it has as much
or more calories than sugar… which means it, if not consumed
completely by the yeast during the rising process, is just as
bad for ya as sugar left over in the loaf.
Forgive my preaching, I make my own homemade bread (whole &
white wheat flour with oatmeal, usually) and I love the stuff
and pay little attention to the sugar content. But I haven’t
used honey in years, costs too much…. plus if I had some on
hand I’d no doubt be pigging out on it spread thickly on my
buttered homemade bread!
–
|——————————————————-|
|Jim Devenport |
|All Standard Disclaimers Disclaimed |
|My views rarely (if ever) reflect those of my employers|
|——————————————————-|
In article <4d3mcn$…@grid.direct.ca>, kman…@direct.ca (Ken Manton) writes:
=I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
=grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
= The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
= I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
=recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
=I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE one
=pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one pound loaf
=resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a little hard on
=the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for a diabetic using
=a bread machine.?
I take it that your bread machine doesn’t allow you to regulate the amount of
time the bread’s allowed to rise? The problem you’re seeing is that the amount
of yeast you’re using, combined with the amount of sugar available to that
yeast and the length of time the bread’s allowed to rise isn’t sufficient to
get the bread to rise enough. You’ll have to increase either sugar, yeast, or
time for rising.
—————————————————————————
I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I’d appreciate it if you’d
bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own
preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you
throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result.
Quoting kmanton from a message in misc.health.diabetes
km}I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
km}grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
km}The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
km}I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
km}recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
km}I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE
km}one pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one
km}pound loaf resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a
km}little hard on the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for
km}a diabetic using a bread machine.?
I use plain old breadmaker recipes with sugar or honey as called for. I
don’t see the reason for making bread any differently because I am
diabetic. Just follow the breadmachine recipes. The yeast uses the honey
or sugar for food so it sould not be a big factor.
`[1;32m Lisa (Pooh) Crawford in sunny Perrine, Fl
`[1;32m Co-host ANGELS WINGS (CF15) `[1;33m GOD is my pilot!
In article <4dca5c$…@news2.delphi.com>, LISA_P…@delphi.com writes:
=
=Quoting kmanton from a message in misc.health.diabetes
= km}I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
= km}grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
= km}The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
= km}I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
= km}recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
= km}I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE
= km}one pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one
= km}pound loaf resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a
= km}little hard on the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for
= km}a diabetic using a bread machine.?
=I use plain old breadmaker recipes with sugar or honey as called for. I
=don’t see the reason for making bread any differently because I am
=diabetic. Just follow the breadmachine recipes. The yeast uses the honey
=or sugar for food so it sould not be a big factor.
Actually, given the description of the problem, chances are that in the recipe
he’s talking about, quite a bit of the honey is NOT consumed by the yeast. To
get the rapid rise he implies, you use a substantial excess of sugar.
—————————————————————————
I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I’d appreciate it if you’d
bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own
preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you
throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result.
On 17 Jan 1996, Speaker-to-Minerals wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> In article <4dca5c$…@news2.delphi.com>, LISA_P…@delphi.com writes:
> =
> =Quoting kmanton from a message in misc.health.diabetes
> = km}I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
> = km}grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
> = km}The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
> = km}I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
> = km}recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
> = km}I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE
> = km}one pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one
> = km}pound loaf resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a
> = km}little hard on the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for
> = km}a diabetic using a bread machine.?
> =I use plain old breadmaker recipes with sugar or honey as called for. I
> =don’t see the reason for making bread any differently because I am
> =diabetic. Just follow the breadmachine recipes. The yeast uses the honey
> =or sugar for food so it sould not be a big factor.
> Actually, given the description of the problem, chances are that in the recipe
> he’s talking about, quite a bit of the honey is NOT consumed by the yeast. To
> get the rapid rise he implies, you use a substantial excess of sugar.
Lydik, how do you explain the chemistry of making sourdough French bread? I
have been in the bakeries that make the genuine thing, and they
demonstrate to me that NO sugar is involved at all, for to use sugar will
defeat the sour taste that they are striving for. Which is why I
eat the stuff, and much more to my advantage than is the case of eating the
honey laden bread widely found in the USA.
> =Quoting kmanton from a message in misc.health.diabetes
> = km}I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
> = km}grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
…
> = km}one pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one
> = km}pound loaf resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a
> = km}little hard on the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for
> = km}a diabetic using a bread machine.?
I’ve made ballast whole wheat bread, too, but by hand. It got to a grand
height of maybe 3 inches. MOst of it’s sitting in the freezer. It
soaked up the broth in homemade French onion soup real well, though. I
think it has great potential for bread crumbs! Maybe the Pittsburgh
Penguins needs some whole grain hockey pucks 8).
Polly
iddm 30 years, pump 3-1/2
p…@vms.cis.pitt.edu
In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960117235857.22380F-100…@crash.cts.com>,
Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> wrote:
>On 17 Jan 1996, Speaker-to-Minerals wrote:
>> Actually, given the description of the problem, chances are that in the
>> recipe he’s talking about, quite a bit of the honey is NOT consumed by
>> the yeast. To get the rapid rise he implies, you use a substantial
>> excess of sugar.
>Lydik, how do you explain the chemistry of making sourdough French bread? I
>have been in the bakeries that make the genuine thing, and they
>demonstrate to me that NO sugar is involved at all, for to use sugar will
>defeat the sour taste that they are striving for. Which is why I
>eat the stuff, and much more to my advantage than is the case of eating the
>honey laden bread widely found in the USA.
Presumably they let it rise longer, to give the yeasts a better go at the
sugars/starches in the flour.
Rachel
Who has been known to bake
—
"That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you
have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs."
– Marco Simons on net censorship
On 22 Jan 1996, Speaker-to-Minerals wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960117235857.22380F-100…@crash.cts.com>, Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> writes:
> =On 17 Jan 1996, Speaker-to-Minerals wrote:
> =
> => In article <4dca5c$…@news2.delphi.com>, LISA_P…@delphi.com writes:
> => =
> => =Quoting kmanton from a message in misc.health.diabetes
> => = km}I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
> => = km}grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
> => = km}The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
> => = km}I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
> => = km}recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
> => = km}I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE
> => = km}one pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one
> => = km}pound loaf resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a
> => = km}little hard on the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for
> => = km}a diabetic using a bread machine.?
> => =I use plain old breadmaker recipes with sugar or honey as called for. I
> => =don’t see the reason for making bread any differently because I am
> => =diabetic. Just follow the breadmachine recipes. The yeast uses the honey
> => =or sugar for food so it sould not be a big factor.
> =>
> => Actually, given the description of the problem, chances are that in the recipe
> => he’s talking about, quite a bit of the honey is NOT consumed by the yeast. To
> => get the rapid rise he implies, you use a substantial excess of sugar.
> =
> =Lydik, how do you explain the chemistry of making sourdough French bread? I
> =have been in the bakeries that make the genuine thing, and they
> =demonstrate to me that NO sugar is involved at all, for to use sugar will
> =defeat the sour taste that they are striving for. Which is why I
> =eat the stuff, and much more to my advantage than is the case of eating the
> =honey laden bread widely found in the USA.
> Mickey, why don’t you try actually reading a thread before posting your usual
> bullshit? The situation described was one in which a large amount of honey was
> used in the recipe. Considerably larger than the amount used when the person
> was not using a bread machine. When he cut the amount of honey back to what
> he’d normally use, the bread didn’t rise properly. That recipe was clearly
> using an excess of sugar to achieve a rapid rise. Now, if you don’t want to
> use an excess of sugar, you can either use more yeast or a longer rise time (as
> I pointed out in this thread). But the particular recipe under discussion was
> using an excess of sugar.
> Once again, Mickey, you demonstrate your proclivity to make overly broad
> generalizations based on your extremely limited knowledge of a field.
Here again we have this poor dumb cluck talking through his hat!
Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar. And
that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow. They don’t
work that way, Lydik.
They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job. The reason the
dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
possibility) OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
comes from myself the winemaker). The yeast "sticking" is the curse
of working with them, and not even biochemists know all the reasons for
this. Unsticking the yeast (getting them to start reproducing again) is a
real art, but they NEVER throw more sugar at them.
Just another example of Lydik taking disjointed facts from his cement
mixer mentality (where nothing fits together with any coherence), and
*leaping* to totally unwarranted conclusions.
In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960117235857.22380F-100…@crash.cts.com>, Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> writes:
=On 17 Jan 1996, Speaker-to-Minerals wrote:
=
=> In article <4dca5c$…@news2.delphi.com>, LISA_P…@delphi.com writes:
=> =
=> =Quoting kmanton from a message in misc.health.diabetes
=> = km}I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
=> = km}grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
=> = km}The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
=> = km}I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
=> = km}recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
=> = km}I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE
=> = km}one pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one
=> = km}pound loaf resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a
=> = km}little hard on the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for
=> = km}a diabetic using a bread machine.?
=> =I use plain old breadmaker recipes with sugar or honey as called for. I
=> =don’t see the reason for making bread any differently because I am
=> =diabetic. Just follow the breadmachine recipes. The yeast uses the honey
=> =or sugar for food so it sould not be a big factor.
=>
=> Actually, given the description of the problem, chances are that in the recipe
=> he’s talking about, quite a bit of the honey is NOT consumed by the yeast. To
=> get the rapid rise he implies, you use a substantial excess of sugar.
=
=Lydik, how do you explain the chemistry of making sourdough French bread? I
=have been in the bakeries that make the genuine thing, and they
=demonstrate to me that NO sugar is involved at all, for to use sugar will
=defeat the sour taste that they are striving for. Which is why I
=eat the stuff, and much more to my advantage than is the case of eating the
=honey laden bread widely found in the USA.
Mickey, why don’t you try actually reading a thread before posting your usual
bullshit? The situation described was one in which a large amount of honey was
used in the recipe. Considerably larger than the amount used when the person
was not using a bread machine. When he cut the amount of honey back to what
he’d normally use, the bread didn’t rise properly. That recipe was clearly
using an excess of sugar to achieve a rapid rise. Now, if you don’t want to
use an excess of sugar, you can either use more yeast or a longer rise time (as
I pointed out in this thread). But the particular recipe under discussion was
using an excess of sugar.
Once again, Mickey, you demonstrate your proclivity to make overly broad
generalizations based on your extremely limited knowledge of a field.
—————————————————————————
I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I’d appreciate it if you’d
bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own
preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you
throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result.
In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960122110421.2630I-100…@crash.cts.com>, Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> writes:
=Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar.
I never said vast amounts, Mickey.
=And that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow.
That’s pretty much true, Mickey.
=They don’t work that way, Lydik.
Yes they do, shit-for-brains.
=They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job. The reason the
=dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
=to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
=possibility) OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
=comes from myself the winemaker).
Perhaps, then, Mickey, you’d care to explain why it was that with the recipe
with the larger amount of honey, the bread DID rise properly?
—————————————————————————
I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I’d appreciate it if you’d
bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own
preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you
throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result.
In article <4e6bjp$…@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, lyd…@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
says…
>In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960122110421.2630I-100…@crash.cts.com>,
Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> writes:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>=Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar.
>I never said vast amounts, Mickey.
>=And that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow.
>That’s pretty much true, Mickey.
>=They don’t work that way, Lydik.
>Yes they do, shit-for-brains.
>=They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job. The reason the
>=dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
>=to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
>=possibility) OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
>=comes from myself the winemaker).
>Perhaps, then, Mickey, you’d care to explain why it was that with the
recipe
>with the larger amount of honey, the bread DID rise properly?
>————————————————————————-
—
>I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I’d appreciate it if
you’d
>bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your
own
>preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread. Remember: If
you
>throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the
result.
I seem to have started a bit of a feud here. Sorry about that.
As to my progress with the bread making, the only solution that seems to
work is to run the machine in the dough only mode and allow more time for
rising. The only thing I have saved with this machine is thus moving the
dough from mixer/kneader that I had been using and letting it rise in a
bowl. Then of course I would have to form it into loaves before baking but
at least the loaves where conventional, dependable and I would have ten
times as many loaves for less electrical energy outlay than the bread
machine uses to produce one mishapen loaf.
I can see that I need personal coaching here!!!!
In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960122110421.2630I-100…@crash.cts.com>,
Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> wrote:
>> Mickey, why don’t you try actually reading a thread before posting your usual
>> bullshit? The situation described was one in which a large amount of honey was
>> used in the recipe. Considerably larger than the amount used when the person
>> was not using a bread machine. When he cut the amount of honey back to what
>> he’d normally use, the bread didn’t rise properly. That recipe was clearly
>> using an excess of sugar to achieve a rapid rise. Now, if you don’t want to
>> use an excess of sugar, you can either use more yeast or a longer rise time (as
>> I pointed out in this thread). But the particular recipe under discussion was
>> using an excess of sugar.
>> Once again, Mickey, you demonstrate your proclivity to make overly broad
>> generalizations based on your extremely limited knowledge of a field.
>Here again we have this poor dumb cluck talking through his hat!
How so?
>Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar. And
>that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow. They don’t
>work that way, Lydik.
They do, up to certain limits. One of the limiting factors on the rate
of yeast growth is how much sugar they can get inside them per unit
time. This depends both on their own biology and on the amount of sugar
available.
>They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job. The reason the
>dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
>to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
>possibility)
Don’t claim my testimony as supporting your dumbness.
Yeast do indeed, up to certain limits, grow faster in higher
concentrations of sugar. If they’re growing slower, you obviously need
to allow longer rising times.
>OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
>comes from myself the winemaker). The yeast "sticking" is the curse
>of working with them, and not even biochemists know all the reasons for
>this. Unsticking the yeast (getting them to start reproducing again) is a
>real art, but they NEVER throw more sugar at them.
I believe that the ways you treat yeast are different in wine-making,
because you start out with a higher sugar content solution, the yeast
stay alive longer, and over the aging period of the wine, the alcohol
content becomes high enough to kill the yeast. Also, although I’m less
sure of it, I believe that in wine-making, since the bottles are sealed,
the yeast are working more-or-less anaerobically. (Yeast can do that.)
All in all, this makes the situation much different, and I would think
that the differences between the wine environment and the bread
environment account both for this "sticking" phenomenon which I have
never encountered and the need or lack thereof to add additional sugar.
(Grape juice and wine both have very high sugar contents — perhaps even
near the sugar concentration that will kill yeast or severely retard
their growth, I’m not sure. Flour doesn’t have nearly as much simple
sugar content, and yeast don’t digest starches very fast.)
The use of an excess of sugar to speed up the operation of yeast is well
understood — I did a good deal of research on commercial fuel alcohol
plants this summer, and the ideal concentration of sugar is an important
factor in the design of the plant — they deliberately put an excess of
sugar in the fermentation mash even though they’ll have to retrieve it
later in the process *because it makes the yeast grow faster*.
I’ve never, in my breadmaking experience, had yeast get "stuck" — I’ve
had problems when making oatmeal bread with killing it off due to
excessive heat, but never just simple inexplicable not working.
Oh, that reminds me: another reason for bread not rising right is the
wrong temperature. Yeast (at least the kind used for bread-making) is
happiest at a little above body temperature. Lower temps (down to near
freezing, I believe) simple slow its growth. Higher temps can kill it —
if water that temperature would burn your skin, then it’ll kill yeast.
>Just another example of Lydik taking disjointed facts from his cement
>mixer mentality (where nothing fits together with any coherence), and
>*leaping* to totally unwarranted conclusions.
Um, I think that’s you, actually. You’re using your experience with
yeast in one particular setting, with little theoretical background, to
draw wrong conclusions about its action in other settings.
Rachel
—
"That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you
have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs."
– Marco Simons on net censorship
On 26 Jan 1996, Rachel Meredith Kadel wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.960122110421.2630I-100…@crash.cts.com>,
> Michel Martin Devine <m…@cts.com> wrote:
> >> Mickey, why don’t you try actually reading a thread before posting your usual
> >> bullshit? The situation described was one in which a large amount of honey was
> >> used in the recipe. Considerably larger than the amount used when the person
> >> was not using a bread machine. When he cut the amount of honey back to what
> >> he’d normally use, the bread didn’t rise properly. That recipe was clearly
> >> using an excess of sugar to achieve a rapid rise. Now, if you don’t want to
> >> use an excess of sugar, you can either use more yeast or a longer rise time (as
> >> I pointed out in this thread). But the particular recipe under discussion was
> >> using an excess of sugar.
> >> Once again, Mickey, you demonstrate your proclivity to make overly broad
> >> generalizations based on your extremely limited knowledge of a field.
> >Here again we have this poor dumb cluck talking through his hat!
> How so?
> >Lydik firmly believes that the yeast consume vast amounts of sugar. And
> >that if you feed them more sugar, the faster they will grow. They don’t
> >work that way, Lydik.
> They do, up to certain limits. One of the limiting factors on the rate
> of yeast growth is how much sugar they can get inside them per unit
> time. This depends both on their own biology and on the amount of sugar
> available.
> >They consume minute amounts of sugars to do their job. The reason the
> >dough didn’t rise was because there wasn’t enough time allowed
> >to elapse (and Rachel the breadmaker has recently offered that as a
> >possibility)
> Don’t claim my testimony as supporting your dumbness.
Below, you offer your own same testimony as a possible explanation to
Ken’s problem.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Yeast do indeed, up to certain limits, grow faster in higher
> concentrations of sugar. If they’re growing slower, you obviously need
> to allow longer rising times.
> >OR the yeast growing process somehow got "stuck" (this
> >comes from myself the winemaker). The yeast "sticking" is the curse
> >of working with them, and not even biochemists know all the reasons for
> >this. Unsticking the yeast (getting them to start reproducing again) is a
> >real art, but they NEVER throw more sugar at them.
> I believe that the ways you treat yeast are different in wine-making,
> because you start out with a higher sugar content solution, the yeast
> stay alive longer, and over the aging period of the wine, the alcohol
> content becomes high enough to kill the yeast. Also, although I’m less
> sure of it, I believe that in wine-making, since the bottles are sealed,
> the yeast are working more-or-less anaerobically. (Yeast can do that.)
You are confusing the secondary fermentation process, where the very last
remnants of the sugar are finally reduced to alcohol (which is done
in sealed kegs without access to the air and its airborne bacteria which
could attack the alcohol and reduce it to acetic acid or vinegar) and the
PRIMARY fermentation step that happens to be carried out in the open air
(not for the benefit of the yeast, which are always largely anerobic, but
for the reason of the furious and frothing process at that stage that is
taking place.)
> All in all, this makes the situation much different, and I would think
> that the differences between the wine environment and the bread
> environment account both for this "sticking" phenomenon which I have
> never encountered and the need or lack thereof to add additional sugar.
> (Grape juice and wine both have very high sugar contents — perhaps even
> near the sugar concentration that will kill yeast or severely retard
> their growth, I’m not sure. Flour doesn’t have nearly as much simple
> sugar content, and yeast don’t digest starches very fast.)
> The use of an excess of sugar to speed up the operation of yeast is well
> understood — I did a good deal of research on commercial fuel alcohol
> plants this summer, and the ideal concentration of sugar is an important
> factor in the design of the plant — they deliberately put an excess of
> sugar in the fermentation mash even though they’ll have to retrieve it
> later in the process *because it makes the yeast grow faster*.
Yes, but all I pointed out to Lydik was that his "if some is good, more
is better" philosophy didn’t apply here. True, a certain critical amount
of sugar IS needed for the yeast. But consider the making of sourdough
French bread. In this case, the only sugar that the yeast have access to
is the rather paltry amount that has decomposed from the wheat starch
present. Much, MUCH different from the concentration of sugar provided
by the *honey* in Ken’s recipes. And as far as the additional time
required to make sourdough from relatively sugar-free ingredients, it is
just a matter of a couple of hours or so. I have watched bakers make the
stuff: it’s only a morning to mid-afternoon operation starting with the
mixing of the dough to getting the bread out of the oven (my own personal
observation and experience).
Which is why I cited your most reasonable comment that perhaps Ken
needed to allow a little more time for the yeast to do its job.
> I’ve never, in my breadmaking experience, had yeast get "stuck" — I’ve
> had problems when making oatmeal bread with killing it off due to
> excessive heat, but never just simple inexplicable not working.
> Oh, that reminds me: another reason for bread not rising right is the
> wrong temperature. Yeast (at least the kind used for bread-making) is
> happiest at a little above body temperature. Lower temps (down to near
> freezing, I believe) simple slow its growth. Higher temps can kill it —
> if water that temperature would burn your skin, then it’ll kill yeast.
All very true. However, in winemaking the yeast is normally worked
at a rather high room temperature, in the 70s or even 80s in the warm
California autumns. But below 60 degrees, the yeast appear to have left
for Florida.
> >Just another example of Lydik taking disjointed facts from his cement
> >mixer mentality (where nothing fits together with any coherence), and
> >*leaping* to totally unwarranted conclusions.
> Um, I think that’s you, actually. You’re using your experience with
> yeast in one particular setting, with little theoretical background, to
> draw wrong conclusions about its action in other settings.
Not really. It is not THEORY to point out that above a certain point
of sugar concentration, throwing sugar at yeast to make them reproductive
(as Lydik suggested) is not indicated. And the levels of sugar concentration
of a dough with honey (itself over 80% sugar) that Ken was working with is
already way above the "starvation" level for yeast.
kman…@direct.ca (Ken Manton) wrote:
>I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
>grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
> The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
> I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
>recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
>I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE one
>pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one pound loaf
>resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a little hard on
>the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for a diabetic using
>a bread machine.?
One work around is to substitute some gluten flour (around four
tablespoons) for part of the whole grain flour. Gluten is the
component of wheat flour that makes it raise and is availible but is
hard to find. You will probably have to go to a health food store to
find it.
Stephen M. Powell
Interested in Alternative Healing?
Visit "The Wellness Zone"
http://www.sfol.com/sfol/wellness/wellness.html
In article <4ej7ff$…@news2.his.com>, stephen.pow…@sfol.com (Stephen M. Powell) writes:
=kman…@direct.ca (Ken Manton) wrote:
=
=>I am an insulin user. I have for some years been manually making multi
=>grain bread. I usually make 5 two pound loaves at a time which I freeze.
=> The recipe calls for 1/4 honey for the 5 loaves (total).
=> I have just purchased a bread making machine. Trying to use my old
=>recipe resulted in a one inch high loaf.
=>I used the bread machine recipe which calls for 1/4 cup honey for ONE one
=>pound loaf but reduced the honey to 1 1/2 tsp sugar for ONE one pound loaf
=>resulted in a 2 1/2 inch loaf. Great ballast bread but a little hard on
=>the stomach. Does anyone have a recipe that works for a diabetic using
=>a bread machine.?
=
=One work around is to substitute some gluten flour (around four
=tablespoons) for part of the whole grain flour. Gluten is the
=component of wheat flour that makes it raise
Er, not quite. Gluten is the component that makes dough sticky, that makes
kneaded dough elastic, and that keeps the resulting bread from falling apart.
It DOES help make bread rise better, since glutenous dough is better able to
trap the CO2 released by the yeast, but to say that it’s the component that
makes the bread rise is something of an overstatement.
and is availible but is
=hard to find. You will probably have to go to a health food store to
=find it.
=
=Stephen M. Powell
=
= Interested in Alternative Healing?
= Visit "The Wellness Zone"
= http://www.sfol.com/sfol/wellness/wellness.html
=
=
—————————————————————————
I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I’d appreciate it if you’d
bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own
preconceived notions if I’m posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you
throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result.
>=One work around is to substitute some gluten flour (around four
>=tablespoons) for part of the whole grain flour. Gluten is the
>=component of wheat flour that makes it raise
>Er, not quite. Gluten is the component that makes dough sticky, that makes
>kneaded dough elastic, and that keeps the resulting bread from falling apart.
>It DOES help make bread rise better, since glutenous dough is better able to
>trap the CO2 released by the yeast, but to say that it’s the component that
>makes the bread rise is something of an overstatement.
I tried it
It worked for me
I said "Gluten is the component of wheat flour that makes it raise".
As far as I know, there is no other component in wheat flour( or any
other flour for that matter) that significantly contributes to yeast
breads rising. Non-wheat flours contain no gluten, so the more of that
"healther stuff" you throw in, the denser the bread gets (all other
things being equal). Adding some extra gluten flour can help.
Stephen M. Powell