Insulin pump OK for preschoolers with diabetes
Oct 14 (Reuters Health) – Young children with diabetes can be treated as
effectively with a portable insulin pump as with multiple daily insulin
injections, researchers report
Dr. Linda A. DiMeglio and colleagues from Indiana University, Indianapolis,
studied 42 diabetic preschoolers who were either treated with continuous
insulin infusion using an insulin pump or by intensive insulin injection
therapy. The investigators compared control of blood sugar levels, safety,
and parents’ satisfaction in the two groups.
A total of 37 children completed 6 months of therapy, including 17 on
injection therapy and 20 on pump therapy.
Blood glucose control did not differ significantly between the two groups,
according to the results of the study published in the Journal of
Pediatrics.
The number of episodes of abnormally low blood sugar was higher in the group
using pumps than in those on injection therapy, but both groups experienced
one instance of a seizure due to this condition.
Parents were happy with pump therapy, and 95 percent of families continued
on the treatment beyond the 6 months.
"It remains to be seen whether the benefit of insulin pump therapy in terms
of flexibility and convenience justifies the increased costs for very young
children with diabetes," the researchers conclude.
"Studies of long-term outcomes of children begun on pump therapy at very
young ages also are needed," they add.
SOURCE: Journal of Pediatrics, September 2004.
Gumbo <gu…@someplace.com> wrote on Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:55:11 -0500:
> Insulin pump OK for preschoolers with diabetes
> Oct 14 (Reuters Health) – Young children with diabetes can be treated as
> effectively with a portable insulin pump as with multiple daily insulin
> injections, researchers report
> Dr. Linda A. DiMeglio and colleagues from Indiana University,
> Indianapolis, studied 42 diabetic preschoolers who were either treated
> with continuous insulin infusion using an insulin pump or by intensive
> insulin injection therapy. The investigators compared control of blood
> sugar levels, safety, and parents’ satisfaction in the two groups.
What about the poor bloody kids? Did anybody think to ask _them_ about
how they felt being strapped up to a device all day long? Or, more
importantly, given their age, get a psychologist to check, as far is as
possible, for abnormal emotional development? Parents likely wouldn’t
notice this.
> A total of 37 children completed 6 months of therapy, including 17 on
> injection therapy and 20 on pump therapy.
> Blood glucose control did not differ significantly between the two
> groups, according to the results of the study published in the Journal
> of Pediatrics.
> The number of episodes of abnormally low blood sugar was higher in the
> group using pumps than in those on injection therapy, but both groups
> experienced one instance of a seizure due to this condition.
> Parents were happy with pump therapy, and 95 percent of families
> continued on the treatment beyond the 6 months.
> "It remains to be seen whether the benefit of insulin pump therapy in
> terms of flexibility and convenience justifies the increased costs for
> very young children with diabetes," the researchers conclude.
.., to whom the children seem to be little more than machines to be kept
running properly.
> "Studies of long-term outcomes of children begun on pump therapy at very
> young ages also are needed," they add.
> SOURCE: Journal of Pediatrics, September 2004.
–
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: a…@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:33:12 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Gumbo <gu…@someplace.com> wrote on Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:55:11 -0500:
>> Insulin pump OK for preschoolers with diabetes
>> Oct 14 (Reuters Health) – Young children with diabetes can be treated as
>> effectively with a portable insulin pump as with multiple daily insulin
>> injections, researchers report
>> Dr. Linda A. DiMeglio and colleagues from Indiana University,
>> Indianapolis, studied 42 diabetic preschoolers who were either treated
>> with continuous insulin infusion using an insulin pump or by intensive
>> insulin injection therapy. The investigators compared control of blood
>> sugar levels, safety, and parents’ satisfaction in the two groups.
>What about the poor bloody kids? Did anybody think to ask _them_ about
>how they felt being strapped up to a device all day long? Or, more
>importantly, given their age, get a psychologist to check, as far is as
>possible, for abnormal emotional development? Parents likely wouldn’t
>notice this.
the gumbo references may or may not include data from the kids but
there is plenty of data collected directly from pumping kids that
proves that the kids prefer the pumps to MDI. go to
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org for all the proof you need.
are you actually saying that MDI is better for kids than pumps?
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
…Theodore Roosevelt
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>> A total of 37 children completed 6 months of therapy, including 17 on
>> injection therapy and 20 on pump therapy.
>> Blood glucose control did not differ significantly between the two
>> groups, according to the results of the study published in the Journal
>> of Pediatrics.
>> The number of episodes of abnormally low blood sugar was higher in the
>> group using pumps than in those on injection therapy, but both groups
>> experienced one instance of a seizure due to this condition.
>> Parents were happy with pump therapy, and 95 percent of families
>> continued on the treatment beyond the 6 months.
>> "It remains to be seen whether the benefit of insulin pump therapy in
>> terms of flexibility and convenience justifies the increased costs for
>> very young children with diabetes," the researchers conclude.
>.., to whom the children seem to be little more than machines to be kept
>running properly.
>> "Studies of long-term outcomes of children begun on pump therapy at very
>> young ages also are needed," they add.
>> SOURCE: Journal of Pediatrics, September 2004.
Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:36:32 -0500:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:33:12 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
> Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>Gumbo <gu…@someplace.com> wrote on Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:55:11 -0500:
>>> Insulin pump OK for preschoolers with diabetes
>>> Oct 14 (Reuters Health) – Young children with diabetes can be treated as
>>> effectively with a portable insulin pump as with multiple daily insulin
>>> injections, researchers report
>>> Dr. Linda A. DiMeglio and colleagues from Indiana University,
>>> Indianapolis, studied 42 diabetic preschoolers who were either treated
>>> with continuous insulin infusion using an insulin pump or by intensive
>>> insulin injection therapy. The investigators compared control of blood
>>> sugar levels, safety, and parents’ satisfaction in the two groups.
>>What about the poor bloody kids? Did anybody think to ask _them_ about
>>how they felt being strapped up to a device all day long? Or, more
>>importantly, given their age, get a psychologist to check, as far is as
>>possible, for abnormal emotional development? Parents likely wouldn’t
>>notice this.
> the gumbo references may or may not include data from the kids but
> there is plenty of data collected directly from pumping kids that
> proves that the kids prefer the pumps to MDI. go to
> http://www.insulin-pumpers.org for all the proof you need.
The name of that site doesn’t suggest disinterested impartiality. What
about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and SDIers. I
started off on just one jab per day, and I’m thankful for that now. It
was difficult enought coping with just that one.
> are you actually saying that MDI is better for kids than pumps?
No, of course not. Just that there’s more to a healthy life, a lot more,
than level BS levels.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Mâck©®
>>> A total of 37 children completed 6 months of therapy, including 17 on
>>> injection therapy and 20 on pump therapy.
>>> Blood glucose control did not differ significantly between the two
>>> groups, according to the results of the study published in the
>>> Journal of Pediatrics.
>>> The number of episodes of abnormally low blood sugar was higher in
>>> the group using pumps than in those on injection therapy, but both
>>> groups experienced one instance of a seizure due to this condition.
>>> Parents were happy with pump therapy, and 95 percent of families
>>> continued on the treatment beyond the 6 months.
>>> "It remains to be seen whether the benefit of insulin pump therapy in
>>> terms of flexibility and convenience justifies the increased costs
>>> for very young children with diabetes," the researchers conclude.
>>.., to whom the children seem to be little more than machines to be
>>kept running properly.
>>> "Studies of long-term outcomes of children begun on pump therapy at
>>> very young ages also are needed," they add.
>>> SOURCE: Journal of Pediatrics, September 2004.
–
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: a…@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:45:58 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:36:32 -0500:
>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:33:12 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
>> Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>>Gumbo <gu…@someplace.com> wrote on Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:55:11 -0500:
>>>> Insulin pump OK for preschoolers with diabetes
>>>> Oct 14 (Reuters Health) – Young children with diabetes can be treated as
>>>> effectively with a portable insulin pump as with multiple daily insulin
>>>> injections, researchers report
>>>> Dr. Linda A. DiMeglio and colleagues from Indiana University,
>>>> Indianapolis, studied 42 diabetic preschoolers who were either treated
>>>> with continuous insulin infusion using an insulin pump or by intensive
>>>> insulin injection therapy. The investigators compared control of blood
>>>> sugar levels, safety, and parents’ satisfaction in the two groups.
>>>What about the poor bloody kids? Did anybody think to ask _them_ about
>>>how they felt being strapped up to a device all day long? Or, more
>>>importantly, given their age, get a psychologist to check, as far is as
>>>possible, for abnormal emotional development? Parents likely wouldn’t
>>>notice this.
>> the gumbo references may or may not include data from the kids but
>> there is plenty of data collected directly from pumping kids that
>> proves that the kids prefer the pumps to MDI. go to
>> http://www.insulin-pumpers.org for all the proof you need.
>The name of that site doesn’t suggest disinterested impartiality.
if you want to hear from the kids who are actually using pumps then
you will need to go to that site.
What
>about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and SDIers. I
>started off on just one jab per day, and I’m thankful for that now. It
>was difficult enought coping with just that one.
when I was diagnosed at 8 years old 1 shot a day would not have
covered my body’s needs. I started out using NPH and R taking 4 shots
per day and over the years have increased the shot frequency upwards
of 6 to 8 per day using better insulins and better regimes for tighter
control.
I was 12 the first time I tried pumping. Back then the inserter
needle was not removable as it is now and was the delivery method for
the insulin. Back then it would become uncomfortable after 2 days.
We also did not have insurance. Now the newer infusion sets are
nothing like they used to be, are very comfortable and there are many
ways to make wearing a pump as an active kid very easy and
comfortable.
>> are you actually saying that MDI is better for kids than pumps?
>No, of course not. Just that there’s more to a healthy life, a lot more,
>than level BS levels.
>> Mâck©®
without level blood sugars it did not feel very healthy as a kid.
wild swings and high BGs makes kids feel just as sick as it does for
adults. pumping with today’s pumps/infusion sets and newer insulins
makes life as a type 1 kid very easy.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
…Theodore Roosevelt
Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:04 -0500:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:45:58 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
> Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:36:32 -0500:
>>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:33:12 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
>>> Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>>>What about the poor bloody kids? Did anybody think to ask _them_
>>>>about how they felt being strapped up to a device all day long? Or,
>>>>more importantly, given their age, get a psychologist to check, as
>>>>far is as possible, for abnormal emotional development? Parents
>>>>likely wouldn’t notice this.
>>> the gumbo references may or may not include data from the kids but
>>> there is plenty of data collected directly from pumping kids that
>>> proves that the kids prefer the pumps to MDI. go to
>>> http://www.insulin-pumpers.org for all the proof you need.
>>The name of that site doesn’t suggest disinterested impartiality.
> if you want to hear from the kids who are actually using pumps then you
> will need to go to that site.
I had a quick look last night. It appears to be a pump advocacy site. I
only had a cursory look, but found _nowhere_ any accounts from kids who
hated using a pump. Since there are adults who don’t get on with the
pump (Willbill here, for example), it is to be supposed there are also
children who don’t. Possibly quite a lot.
>>What about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and SDIers.
>>I started off on just one jab per day, and I’m thankful for that now.
>>It was difficult enought coping with just that one.
> when I was diagnosed at 8 years old 1 shot a day would not have
> covered my body’s needs.
Yes, but what about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and
SDIers?
> I started out using NPH and R taking 4 shots per day and over the years
> have increased the shot frequency upwards of 6 to 8 per day using
> better insulins and better regimes for tighter control.
NPH isn’t a long lasting insulin. With Lente you might well have managed
on one per day. _If_ that had been important to your parents and doctor.
> I was 12 the first time I tried pumping. Back then the inserter needle
> was not removable as it is now and was the delivery method for the
> insulin. Back then it would become uncomfortable after 2 days. We
> also did not have insurance. Now the newer infusion sets are nothing
> like they used to be, are very comfortable and there are many ways to
> make wearing a pump as an active kid very easy and comfortable.
You _tried_ pumping. On whose initiative? How long did the try last
for, and what caused it to end?
>>> are you actually saying that MDI is better for kids than pumps?
>>No, of course not. Just that there’s more to a healthy life, a lot
>>more, than level BS levels.
> without level blood sugars it did not feel very healthy as a kid.
> wild swings and high BGs makes kids feel just as sick as it does for
> adults. pumping with today’s pumps/infusion sets and newer insulins
> makes life as a type 1 kid very easy.
Oh, how very sensible. But there’s a lot more to a healthy life that
level BS levels. A lot more.
I can’t remember the "wild swings and high BGs" making me feel that bad
all these decades ago. The one jab a day (Lente + Soluble) worked pretty
well, all things considered.
Possibly it doesn’t feel very healthy as a kid going around with a tube
stuck into your belly all the time. It might even cause the child to
come to regard himself as an invalid, whereas one or two injections a day
might not. How is a young child supposed to express resentment against a
pump? With injections (given by a parent), he can scream and kick and
wail, but at least the rest of the time he is free from bodily violation.
With a pump, there is nothing available, short of ripping the thing out
of his body and smashing it, or digging his nails in and scratching till
he draws blood.
> Mâck©®
–
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: a…@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
"Alan Mackenzie" <a…@muc.de> wrote in message news:b9l2oc.36.ln@acm.acm…
> Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:04 -0500:
> > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:45:58 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
> > Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
snip
> > without level blood sugars it did not feel very healthy as a kid.
> > wild swings and high BGs makes kids feel just as sick as it does for
> > adults. pumping with today’s pumps/infusion sets and newer insulins
> > makes life as a type 1 kid very easy.
> Oh, how very sensible. But there’s a lot more to a healthy life that
> level BS levels. A lot more.
> I can’t remember the "wild swings and high BGs" making me feel that bad
> all these decades ago. The one jab a day (Lente + Soluble) worked pretty
> well, all things considered.
I was on the same as you Alan and I do not remember even the "wild swings
and high BGs", one you do not get wild swing with a single shot regime, what
you get if it is wrong is a rise in BG until it is noticeable then it has to
be stabilised. If the person does go low it is a hypo like any other but
because of it being a single injection it is impossible to have swings as is
meant these days. The control was nothing like the control that is available
now but there was still the pee test that told if your sugar was rising,
what happened then was up to the parents to whip you off to the doctors to
get something done about it. More often it was a telling off and being told
not to eat my friends sweets when they offered them, (she was usually
right).
Unfortunately thanks to the ‘modern’ insulin’s it is now impossible to use a
regime like that because there is no Lente insulin (the only one of any use
is not available in the states and doctors are reluctant to use it
elsewhere).
> Possibly it doesn’t feel very healthy as a kid going around with a tube
> stuck into your belly all the time. It might even cause the child to
> come to regard himself as an invalid, whereas one or two injections a day
> might not. How is a young child supposed to express resentment against a
> pump? With injections (given by a parent), he can scream and kick and
> wail, but at least the rest of the time he is free from bodily violation.
> With a pump, there is nothing available, short of ripping the thing out
> of his body and smashing it, or digging his nails in and scratching till
> he draws blood.
After my injection and breakfast the only time I was home was at set meal
)
times throughout the day. I lived by the watch, but I certainly lived a
normal childhood. To of had to have a pump on my belt or round my neck would
have certainly restricted my life it would have been like having to wear a
calliper. Advertising the fact I was different,
If a child knows that the parents have had to make sacrifices to get a pump
for them many who truly hate it will say it is ok, (I know my son’s were
terrible for that even when I knew they did not like something, breaking
through that loyalty was difficult.)
I used to have a problem excusing the odd bump or bruise on my legs when we
went swimming I do not know how I would have explained a pump (the cybermen
in Dr Who were not available then
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> > Mâck©®
> —
> Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
> Email: a…@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
> (like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:52:27 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:04 -0500:
>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:45:58 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
>> Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>>Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:36:32 -0500:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:33:12 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
>>>> Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>>>>What about the poor bloody kids? Did anybody think to ask _them_
>>>>>about how they felt being strapped up to a device all day long? Or,
>>>>>more importantly, given their age, get a psychologist to check, as
>>>>>far is as possible, for abnormal emotional development? Parents
>>>>>likely wouldn’t notice this.
>>>> the gumbo references may or may not include data from the kids but
>>>> there is plenty of data collected directly from pumping kids that
>>>> proves that the kids prefer the pumps to MDI. go to
>>>> http://www.insulin-pumpers.org for all the proof you need.
>>>The name of that site doesn’t suggest disinterested impartiality.
>> if you want to hear from the kids who are actually using pumps then you
>> will need to go to that site.
>I had a quick look last night. It appears to be a pump advocacy site. I
>only had a cursory look, but found _nowhere_ any accounts from kids who
>hated using a pump. Since there are adults who don’t get on with the
>pump (Willbill here, for example), it is to be supposed there are also
>children who don’t. Possibly quite a lot.
you’ll have to read the posts from the members as it is a group
similar to this one but the posts are accessed via email or via their
web interface.
there is one major difference between kids and adults, the kids always
adapt and adjust better to newer technology and to situations like
living with a pump. The first and foremost reason because they are
not set in their ways with years of ingrained baggage.
also pumping allows for a much more active lifestyle than MDI. A
great advantage for kids.
>>>What about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and SDIers.
>>>I started off on just one jab per day, and I’m thankful for that now.
>>>It was difficult enought coping with just that one.
>> when I was diagnosed at 8 years old 1 shot a day would not have
>> covered my body’s needs.
>Yes, but what about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and
>SDIers?
you’re getting that here. you could ask the people at
childrenwithdiabetes,org to share what they have learned.
>> I started out using NPH and R taking 4 shots per day and over the years
>> have increased the shot frequency upwards of 6 to 8 per day using
>> better insulins and better regimes for tighter control.
>NPH isn’t a long lasting insulin. With Lente you might well have managed
>on one per day. _If_ that had been important to your parents and doctor.
actually NPH is a long acting insulin. and was and still is commonly
used as a basal. as far as Lente and the other 2 similar to it, it
probably had a lot more to do with it coming from a non US company as
to it being well known and the level of diabetes knowledge at that
time. we are talking 30 years ago. But when I tried them a few years
back they were not what they were promoted to be any more than Lantus
has lived up to it’s advertising. I haven’t found a single basal
insulin that lasts a full 24 hours. When I can get my hands on the
new one that just came out I will see if that works.
>> I was 12 the first time I tried pumping. Back then the inserter needle
>> was not removable as it is now and was the delivery method for the
>> insulin. Back then it would become uncomfortable after 2 days. We
>> also did not have insurance. Now the newer infusion sets are nothing
>> like they used to be, are very comfortable and there are many ways to
>> make wearing a pump as an active kid very easy and comfortable.
>You _tried_ pumping. On whose initiative?
mine and the endocrinologist.
How long did the try last
>for, and what caused it to end?
more than 2 years. cost without insurance and the fact the damn
needle was not removed and became sore after two days. The needle
issue is no longer a problem with today’s infusions sets.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>>>> are you actually saying that MDI is better for kids than pumps?
>>>No, of course not. Just that there’s more to a healthy life, a lot
>>>more, than level BS levels.
>> without level blood sugars it did not feel very healthy as a kid.
>> wild swings and high BGs makes kids feel just as sick as it does for
>> adults. pumping with today’s pumps/infusion sets and newer insulins
>> makes life as a type 1 kid very easy.
>Oh, how very sensible. But there’s a lot more to a healthy life that
>level BS levels. A lot more.
>I can’t remember the "wild swings and high BGs" making me feel that bad
>all these decades ago. The one jab a day (Lente + Soluble) worked pretty
>well, all things considered.
>Possibly it doesn’t feel very healthy as a kid going around with a tube
>stuck into your belly all the time. It might even cause the child to
>come to regard himself as an invalid, whereas one or two injections a day
>might not. How is a young child supposed to express resentment against a
>pump? With injections (given by a parent), he can scream and kick and
>wail, but at least the rest of the time he is free from bodily violation.
>With a pump, there is nothing available, short of ripping the thing out
>of his body and smashing it, or digging his nails in and scratching till
>he draws blood.
the advantages are that you do not have to deal with the injection
more than once every 3 to 4 days. after that you forget the thing is
there most of the time. You do not have to deal with the limitations
placed on you by ignorant teachers who do not know anything about
diabetes let alone the need to take insulin. or have to deal with
being left out of some things because some of the staff not being
comfortable with your needs refuse to allow to participate and one of
your own parents not being to go with you. plus you get the freedom,
without having to inject, of enjoying the same foods and snacks and
even some sweets like ice cream and cake while at school, other kid’s
or your own birthday party. Pumping also makes puberty a lot easier
to deal with BG swings due to hormonal changes.
it sounds like your basing these guesses on your own fears of pumping.
and assuming that it will be worse for kids. Like I’ve already said,
kids adapt far better and quicker than adults. The kids who are too
young to understand what diabetes is are not resentful at being
diabetic. They are resentful at having to take the injections and not
getting to eat like the other kids or to be restricted in their
activities. pumping helps to eliminate most if not all of that.
and trust me, there is a world of difference ripping out an infusion
set like the ones we had when I was 12 compared to the ones used
today. The old one had a long needle inserted an angle in the skin
that stayed in place for the entire time you wore that set. The knew
ones have removable needles. The tapes are a lot better too. I’ve
had them ripped out using both the old and new sets. The old ones
being ripped out could tear the skin when pulled in the right
direction. The new ones were no worse than pulling of a band that did
not stick to a scab.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
…Theodore Roosevelt
DaveT wrote:
> "Alan Mackenzie" wrote…
>> Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:04 -0500:
>>> without level blood sugars it did not feel very healthy as a kid.
>>> wild swings and high BGs makes kids feel just as sick as it does for
>>> adults. pumping with today’s pumps/infusion sets and newer insulins
>>> makes life as a type 1 kid very easy.
>> Oh, how very sensible. But there’s a lot more to a healthy life that
>> level BS levels. A lot more.
you have to keep in mind who you’re talking to;
afaik mack has complications
the most adament supporters of pumps are those with
serious diabetic complications (ms mar (now deceased?)
(in her 40′s)) is a good example), which tends to
prevent them from venturing away from their bloody
expensive pump/supplies
>> I can’t remember the "wild swings and high BGs" making me feel that bad
>> all these decades ago. The one jab a day (Lente + Soluble) worked pretty
>> well, all things considered.
> I was on the same as you Alan and I do not remember even the "wild swings
> and high BGs", one you do not get wild swing with a single shot regime,
agreed
> what you get if it is wrong
> is a rise in BG until it is noticeable then it has to be stabilised.
agreed
> If the person does go low it is a hypo like any other but because
> of it being a single injection it is impossible to have swings as is
> meant these days.
assumming you mean that hypos tended to happen a lot more
slowly when one is doing a true 1x routine, and one therefore
has more time to notice the oncoming hypo, then i agree
> The control was nothing like the control that is available now
current day "control" improvement is driven by
the improvements in blood glucose testing
the insulins that are available today (in the USA)
are not as good as the beef insulins of just
4 years ago
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> but there was still the pee test that told if your sugar was rising,
> what happened then was up to the parents to whip you off to the doctors to
> get something done about it. More often it was a telling off and being told
> not to eat my friends sweets when they offered them, (she was usually
> right).
> Unfortunately thanks to the ‘modern’ insulin’s it is now impossible to use a
> regime like that because there is no Lente insulin (the only one of any use
> is not available in the states and doctors are reluctant to use it
> elsewhere).
>> Possibly it doesn’t feel very healthy as a kid going around with a tube
)
>> stuck into your belly all the time. It might even cause the child to
>> come to regard himself as an invalid, whereas one or two injections a day
>> might not. How is a young child supposed to express resentment against a
>> pump? With injections (given by a parent), he can scream and kick and
>> wail, but at least the rest of the time he is free from bodily violation.
>> With a pump, there is nothing available, short of ripping the thing out
>> of his body and smashing it, or digging his nails in and scratching till
>> he draws blood.
> After my injection and breakfast the only time I was home was at set meal
> times throughout the day. I lived by the watch, but I certainly lived a
> normal childhood. To of had to have a pump on my belt or round my neck would
> have certainly restricted my life it would have been like having to wear a
> calliper. Advertising the fact I was different,
> If a child knows that the parents have had to make sacrifices to get a pump
> for them many who truly hate it will say it is ok, (I know my son’s were
> terrible for that even when I knew they did not like something, breaking
> through that loyalty was difficult.)
> I used to have a problem excusing the odd bump or bruise on my legs when we
> went swimming I do not know how I would have explained a pump (the cybermen
> in Dr Who were not available then
parents of t1 kids in the USA still have one
sensible way of doing a simple/flexible routine
which would be using 1x or 2x of "human"-UL and
a separate evening meal shot of pork-R (t1 kids
often don’t need much insulin, so if that’s the
case i’d focus on 1x of UL upon rising with some
amount of pork-R mixed in). i rather suspect
that pediatric docs have long forgotten that
pork-R is still available in the USA. :(
and that it will last for decades beyond it’s
expire date (with half decent refridgeration)
an even better routine would be to import beef-Lente
from CP coz the 70% beef-UL is flat with 1x dosing (see PS)
(http://cppharma.co.uk)
bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI/DAFNE
P.S.
| in thread: "Activity Curves (Was: Changing from NPH to Ultralente)"
| 3/8/99 12:04:33 -0800, Michel Martin wrote:
<big snip>
|| (See Human, Porcine and Bovine Ultralente Insulin, by D.R.
|| Owens, et al, Diabetic Medicine, July/Aug, 1986, p. 326-329).
||
|| time Pork-UL beef-UL "human"-UL
|| 0 hrs
|| 2 .01 inch .00 inch .15 inch
|| 3 xx xx .30
|| 4 .46 .00 .80
|| 5 .55 .23 .98
|| 6 .62 .25 .98
|| 7 .68 xx 1.23
|| 8 .68 .30 1.30
|| 10 1.01 .42 1.54
|| 12 1.17 .52 1.56
|| 14 1.33 .55 1.72 (corresponds 0.05 nmol/L)
|| 16 1.41 .55 1.66
|| 18 1.23 .60 1.66
|| 20 1.14 .57 1.41
|| 22 .86 .49 1.11
|| 24 .73 .50 .98
|| 26 .65 .49 .92
|| 28 .54 .47 .86
|| 30 .48 .39 .80
|| 32 .48 .39 .74
|| 34 xx xx .68
|| 36 xx xx .62
my ’87 "Galenics of Insulin" book (and also
an earlier Lilly book) suggests that beef-UL
has residual exceeding 96+ hours, and that
pork-UL dies at 96 hours, and that "human"-UL
is even shorter than pork-UL; which is in
agreement with the above data
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:08:47 -0500, Mack® <NoSpam@spamsuck%.com>
wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:52:27 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
>Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:04 -0500:
>>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:45:58 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
>>> Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>>>Mack® <NoS…@spamsucks.com> wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:36:32 -0500:
>>>>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:33:12 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
>>>>> Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
>>>>>>What about the poor bloody kids? Did anybody think to ask _them_
>>>>>>about how they felt being strapped up to a device all day long? Or,
>>>>>>more importantly, given their age, get a psychologist to check, as
>>>>>>far is as possible, for abnormal emotional development? Parents
>>>>>>likely wouldn’t notice this.
>>>>> the gumbo references may or may not include data from the kids but
>>>>> there is plenty of data collected directly from pumping kids that
>>>>> proves that the kids prefer the pumps to MDI. go to
>>>>> http://www.insulin-pumpers.org for all the proof you need.
>>>>The name of that site doesn’t suggest disinterested impartiality.
>>> if you want to hear from the kids who are actually using pumps then you
>>> will need to go to that site.
>>I had a quick look last night. It appears to be a pump advocacy site. I
>>only had a cursory look, but found _nowhere_ any accounts from kids who
>>hated using a pump. Since there are adults who don’t get on with the
>>pump (Willbill here, for example), it is to be supposed there are also
>>children who don’t. Possibly quite a lot.
>you’ll have to read the posts from the members as it is a group
>similar to this one but the posts are accessed via email or via their
>web interface.
>there is one major difference between kids and adults, the kids always
>adapt and adjust better to newer technology and to situations like
>living with a pump. The first and foremost reason because they are
>not set in their ways with years of ingrained baggage.
>also pumping allows for a much more active lifestyle than MDI. A
>great advantage for kids.
I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
I do the 5 MDI thing and have every intention of keeping it that way.
To me, that is a far better alternative than trying to run a race or
play a sport with with the added weight and annoyance of a pump
constantly attached to me.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>>>>What about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and SDIers.
>>>>I started off on just one jab per day, and I’m thankful for that now.
>>>>It was difficult enought coping with just that one.
>>> when I was diagnosed at 8 years old 1 shot a day would not have
>>> covered my body’s needs.
>>Yes, but what about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and
>>SDIers?
>you’re getting that here. you could ask the people at
>childrenwithdiabetes,org to share what they have learned.
>>> I started out using NPH and R taking 4 shots per day and over the years
>>> have increased the shot frequency upwards of 6 to 8 per day using
>>> better insulins and better regimes for tighter control.
>>NPH isn’t a long lasting insulin. With Lente you might well have managed
>>on one per day. _If_ that had been important to your parents and doctor.
>actually NPH is a long acting insulin. and was and still is commonly
>used as a basal. as far as Lente and the other 2 similar to it, it
>probably had a lot more to do with it coming from a non US company as
>to it being well known and the level of diabetes knowledge at that
>time. we are talking 30 years ago. But when I tried them a few years
>back they were not what they were promoted to be any more than Lantus
>has lived up to it’s advertising. I haven’t found a single basal
>insulin that lasts a full 24 hours. When I can get my hands on the
>new one that just came out I will see if that works.
And that is exactly why I have to inject basal insulin twice per day –
20 units of ultralente in the morning (around 5 am on weekdays) and 11
units of lente at bedtime. I started off just using Lantus at
bedtime, but that caused high blood sugars in the afternoon. Since I
ended paying out of pocket for the Lantus, I quickly decided it wasn’t
worth the high price if I had to inject it twice per day.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>>> I was 12 the first time I tried pumping. Back then the inserter needle
>>> was not removable as it is now and was the delivery method for the
>>> insulin. Back then it would become uncomfortable after 2 days. We
>>> also did not have insurance. Now the newer infusion sets are nothing
>>> like they used to be, are very comfortable and there are many ways to
>>> make wearing a pump as an active kid very easy and comfortable.
>>You _tried_ pumping. On whose initiative?
>mine and the endocrinologist.
> How long did the try last
>>for, and what caused it to end?
>more than 2 years. cost without insurance and the fact the damn
>needle was not removed and became sore after two days. The needle
>issue is no longer a problem with today’s infusions sets.
>>>>> are you actually saying that MDI is better for kids than pumps?
>>>>No, of course not. Just that there’s more to a healthy life, a lot
>>>>more, than level BS levels.
>>> without level blood sugars it did not feel very healthy as a kid.
>>> wild swings and high BGs makes kids feel just as sick as it does for
>>> adults. pumping with today’s pumps/infusion sets and newer insulins
>>> makes life as a type 1 kid very easy.
>>Oh, how very sensible. But there’s a lot more to a healthy life that
>>level BS levels. A lot more.
>>I can’t remember the "wild swings and high BGs" making me feel that bad
>>all these decades ago. The one jab a day (Lente + Soluble) worked pretty
>>well, all things considered.
>>Possibly it doesn’t feel very healthy as a kid going around with a tube
>>stuck into your belly all the time. It might even cause the child to
>>come to regard himself as an invalid, whereas one or two injections a day
>>might not. How is a young child supposed to express resentment against a
>>pump? With injections (given by a parent), he can scream and kick and
>>wail, but at least the rest of the time he is free from bodily violation.
>>With a pump, there is nothing available, short of ripping the thing out
>>of his body and smashing it, or digging his nails in and scratching till
>>he draws blood.
> the advantages are that you do not have to deal with the injection
>more than once every 3 to 4 days. after that you forget the thing is
>there most of the time. You do not have to deal with the limitations
>placed on you by ignorant teachers who do not know anything about
>diabetes let alone the need to take insulin. or have to deal with
>being left out of some things because some of the staff not being
>comfortable with your needs refuse to allow to participate and one of
>your own parents not being to go with you. plus you get the freedom,
>without having to inject, of enjoying the same foods and snacks and
>even some sweets like ice cream and cake while at school, other kid’s
>or your own birthday party. Pumping also makes puberty a lot easier
>to deal with BG swings due to hormonal changes.
>it sounds like your basing these guesses on your own fears of pumping.
>and assuming that it will be worse for kids. Like I’ve already said,
>kids adapt far better and quicker than adults. The kids who are too
>young to understand what diabetes is are not resentful at being
>diabetic. They are resentful at having to take the injections and not
>getting to eat like the other kids or to be restricted in their
>activities. pumping helps to eliminate most if not all of that.
>and trust me, there is a world of difference ripping out an infusion
>set like the ones we had when I was 12 compared to the ones used
>today. The old one had a long needle inserted an angle in the skin
>that stayed in place for the entire time you wore that set. The knew
>ones have removable needles. The tapes are a lot better too. I’ve
>had them ripped out using both the old and new sets. The old ones
>being ripped out could tear the skin when pulled in the right
>direction. The new ones were no worse than pulling of a band that did
>not stick to a scab.
>Mâck©®
>Type 1 since 1975
>http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
>http://www.diabetic-talk.org
>http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
>"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
> President, or that we are to stand by the President
> right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
> but is morally treasonable to the American public."
>…Theodore Roosevelt
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Radioactive Man wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:08:47 -0500, Mack® wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:52:27 +0000, Alan Mackenzie (wrote)
>>> Mack® wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:04 -0500:
>>>>>> the … references may or may not include data from the kids but
>>>>>> there is plenty of data collected directly from pumping kids that
>>>>>> proves that the kids prefer the pumps to MDI. go to
>>>>>> http://www.insulin-pumpers.org for all the proof you need.
>>>>> The name of that site doesn’t suggest disinterested impartiality.
>>>> if you want to hear from the kids who are actually using pumps then you
>>>> will need to go to that site.
>>> I had a quick look last night. It appears to be a pump advocacy site. I
>>> only had a cursory look, but found _nowhere_ any accounts from kids who
>>> hated using a pump. Since there are adults who don’t get on with the
>>> pump (Willbill here, for example), it is to be supposed there are also
>>> children who don’t. Possibly quite a lot.
imho, t1 kids who pump are a poor source of info on pumps
for the simple reason that they don’t have enough experience
with doing different routines with different insulins and
different eating patterns
in my recent experience (last 7 years), it often
takes a t1 (me) more than a year of doing a routine
with insulin and/or diet before i think of a minor
change that makes a real improvement
re those t1s who use an insulin pump for a short time
and then quit, it’s my hunch that the huge majority
quit within the 1st year of pumping; which also
makes them a poor source of info on pumps. it is
also unfortunate coz the insulin pump is the
best way to gain real insight into what one’s
basal needs are and that generally takes more
than a year to get fine tuned and needs quite
a lot of meal skipping (and extra b/g testing)
one t1, who posts here and has now pumped
for several years (5?), is Coughran; roughly
12 or 18 months ago he set his MM (507?) pump aside
to try an MDI routine with Lantus for background
afaik, prior to pump usage he used an MDI routine
with "human"-UL and "human"-R. afaik#2, Coughran
has never used either beef insulin nor pork insulin
frankly, i was surprised that coughran was willing
to use the weirdest insulin yet created (i.e. Lantus),
but not willing to give beef-Lente a try; but he’s
a dyed-in-the-wool science guy, and likely rejects
out of hand that the old insulins are better than
the modern synthetic insulins. i’m assuming that he
gave Lantus a try due to having to make a decision
on whether or not to get a new insulin pump (he ditched
the Lantus and went with the new Cozmo)
>> also pumping allows for a much more active lifestyle than MDI.
>> A great advantage for kids.
> I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
> swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
> thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
> for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
> In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
> contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
> I do the 5 MDI thing and have every intention of keeping it that way.
> To me, that is a far better alternative than trying to run a race or
> play a sport with with the added weight and annoyance of a pump
> constantly attached to me.
i took the liberty of looking at some of your
past posts; specifically the 5-15-’04 thread
"High BS from running hard"
am i correct in thinking that you (i.e. Radioactive Man):
1. are a t1?
2. have never used an insulin pump?
>>>>> What about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and SDIers.
>>>>> I started off on just one jab per day, and I’m thankful for that now.
>>>>> It was difficult enought coping with just that one.
>>>> when I was diagnosed at 8 years old 1 shot a day would not have
>>>> covered my body’s needs.
i find that hard to believe
the trick for a t1 in getting a workable
1x routine is to be using a background insulin
that has enough residual beyond 24 and there
are several different ways to do that (but
"human"-NPH isn’t one of them); the one
proviso i’ll add is that those t1′s who have
dawn phenomena (i.e. high b/g values at some
point in the morning) would have to use a main
morning shot and a 2nd shot to specifically
address their high morning b/g values
>>>> I started out using NPH and R taking 4 shots per day and over the years
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"human"-NPH and "human"-R?
>>>> have increased the shot frequency upwards of 6 to 8 per day using
>>>> better insulins and better regimes for tighter control.
>>> NPH isn’t a long lasting insulin.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
agreed, especially if it is "human"-NPH (which i’ve never used).
pork-NPH has a little more residual at the 24 hour mark, but
not that much more. only beef-NPH has decent residual at
24 hours and is a pretty good true 1x insulin for a t1
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>>> With Lente you might well have managed
>>> on one per day. _If_ that had been important to your parents and doctor.
>> actually NPH is a long acting insulin. and was and still is commonly
>> used as a basal. as far as Lente and the other 2 similar to it, it
>> probably had a lot more to do with it coming from a non US company as
>> to it being well known and the level of diabetes knowledge at that
>> time. we are talking 30 years ago. But when I tried them a few years
>> back they were not what they were promoted to be any more than Lantus
>> has lived up to it’s advertising. I haven’t found a single basal
>> insulin that lasts a full 24 hours. When I can get my hands on the
>> new one that just came out I will see if that works.
> And that is exactly why I have to inject basal insulin twice per day –
> 20 units of ultralente in the morning (around 5 am on weekdays) and 11
> units of lente at bedtime. I started off just using Lantus at
> bedtime, but that caused high blood sugars in the afternoon. Since I
> ended paying out of pocket for the Lantus, I quickly decided it wasn’t
> worth the high price if I had to inject it twice per day.
maybe that dosing of your "human"-UL works for you,
but it’s nowhere close to flat for your background
assuming you’re a t1 (if you’re t2, it’s likely that
you’re a lot less sensitive to background insulin
variation due to you still having fair amounts
of endogenous insulin), you’d get flatter background
action from your 2x of "human"-UL by a) taking equal
amounts and b) keeping closer to 12 hour spacing
(say 5:00AM and 6:00PM)
the reason to stay with equal amounts is that it’s
too hard to keep the UL shot timing to 12 hours
(forgetting to take the 2nd UL shot, and especially
when you sleep in on the weekends)
if you don’t have much of a morning b/g rise, you might even
dose your "human"-UL 1x upon rising; it peaks at roughly
14 hours with 1x dosing and is not flat in the 14-to-26 hour
period, but if your morning basal needs are minimal then
chances are you’d find 1x of "human"-UL to be more convenient;
i know that i was using 2x of pork-Lente this past 12+ months
(it’s best to think of L taken 1x as 2 separate shots:
70% UL and 30% SL), but recently went back to dosing it
1x upon rising (i dose for the UL content, and pay attention
to the UL action in the 12-to-26 hour period, knowing that
i’ll have to eat for the 30% SL roughly in the 5-to-12 hour
time period)
one thing that both oldal and i have found is that when you
get close to the end of a vial of UL (or L when you dose 1x
with L) you need to up the UL amounts slightly (say 10% in
the last 1/3 of the vial, and maybe as much as 20% at the
end of the vial)
bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI
Radioactive Man <1…@2.3> wrote:
> I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
> swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
> thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
> for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
> In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
> contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
This is untrue. Perhaps you are only thinking of the Minimed pump
which used to be authorized for underwater usage, but is no longer.
They can be used when enclosed in sport packs designed for underwater
usage, however. Some other pump brands do not require such enclosures
and can work as simply as strapping them on so they don’t fall off
while underwater.
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 04:44:00 GMT, Radioactive Man <1…@2.3> Screamed
something into the void that sounded like:
>I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
>swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
>thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
>for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
actually you can attach a pump to a swim suit. I highly recommend the
cases designed for swimming and not relying on the pump to be water
tight though. I found that taking a small bolus just before
disconnecting and getting the water allowed for more than 2 hours off
the pump. The exercise helps to burn off the glucose. But I really
don’t see how it would become a problem if one wanted to continue the
activity for more than 2 hours while disconnected. You take a break,
reconnect, bolus a bit more, disconnect and go back to your activity.
Takes no longer than a rest room or snack break.
>In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
>contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
very comfortable high impact cases are made to protect the pumps. I
wouldn’t suggest wearing a pump playing a sport like american
football. and not just because of the impact to the pump. But then
not all type 1s will do sports or will do football. However those
that do can easily take shots for the duration and reconnect to a pump
when finished.
>I do the 5 MDI thing and have every intention of keeping it that way.
>To me, that is a far better alternative than trying to run a race or
>play a sport with with the added weight and annoyance of a pump
>constantly attached to me.
added weight? they weigh as much as a small cell phone and can be
worn so that they do not bounce or rub when running etc. hell someone
who runs daily wearing headphones and a walkman would have more
complaints about the walkman than the pump.
>And that is exactly why I have to inject basal insulin twice per day –
>20 units of ultralente in the morning (around 5 am on weekdays) and 11
>units of lente at bedtime. I started off just using Lantus at
>bedtime, but that caused high blood sugars in the afternoon. Since I
>ended paying out of pocket for the Lantus, I quickly decided it wasn’t
>worth the high price if I had to inject it twice per day.
if I had to pay more than my copay I wouldn’t use lantus or UL. I’d
go to humulin N for a basal and work out 3 to 4 injections of it per
day along with R as needed. But right now, cost isn’t the main
concern for me. Prior to this job, cost was always the biggest
limiting factor.
as for ANY of the beef or pork products, I can’t use them. I am
allergic to them. which is the biggest reason for the poor control
when I was growing up. when the non beef and pork brands hit the
market it was a life saver for me.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
…Theodore Roosevelt
(o o)
–ooO-(_)-Ooo——————–
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:05:16 -0600, willbill <t…@worldwide.net>
Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Radioactive Man wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:08:47 -0500, Mack® wrote:
>>> On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:52:27 +0000, Alan Mackenzie (wrote)
>>>> Mack® wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:04 -0500:
>>>>>>> the … references may or may not include data from the kids but
>>>>>>> there is plenty of data collected directly from pumping kids that
>>>>>>> proves that the kids prefer the pumps to MDI. go to
>>>>>>> http://www.insulin-pumpers.org for all the proof you need.
>>>>>> The name of that site doesn’t suggest disinterested impartiality.
>>>>> if you want to hear from the kids who are actually using pumps then you
>>>>> will need to go to that site.
>>>> I had a quick look last night. It appears to be a pump advocacy site. I
>>>> only had a cursory look, but found _nowhere_ any accounts from kids who
>>>> hated using a pump. Since there are adults who don’t get on with the
>>>> pump (Willbill here, for example), it is to be supposed there are also
>>>> children who don’t. Possibly quite a lot.
>imho, t1 kids who pump are a poor source of info on pumps
>for the simple reason that they don’t have enough experience
>with doing different routines with different insulins and
>different eating patterns
the original questions were about quality of life while pumping verses
MDI. so if you want to know about kids pumping you need to talk to
kids who are pumping. anything else and all you get is guess work.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>in my recent experience (last 7 years), it often
>takes a t1 (me) more than a year of doing a routine
>with insulin and/or diet before i think of a minor
>change that makes a real improvement
>re those t1s who use an insulin pump for a short time
>and then quit, it’s my hunch that the huge majority
>quit within the 1st year of pumping; which also
>makes them a poor source of info on pumps. it is
>also unfortunate coz the insulin pump is the
>best way to gain real insight into what one’s
>basal needs are and that generally takes more
>than a year to get fine tuned and needs quite
>a lot of meal skipping (and extra b/g testing)
>one t1, who posts here and has now pumped
>for several years (5?), is Coughran; roughly
>12 or 18 months ago he set his MM (507?) pump aside
>to try an MDI routine with Lantus for background
>afaik, prior to pump usage he used an MDI routine
>with "human"-UL and "human"-R. afaik#2, Coughran
>has never used either beef insulin nor pork insulin
>frankly, i was surprised that coughran was willing
>to use the weirdest insulin yet created (i.e. Lantus),
>but not willing to give beef-Lente a try; but he’s
>a dyed-in-the-wool science guy, and likely rejects
>out of hand that the old insulins are better than
>the modern synthetic insulins. i’m assuming that he
>gave Lantus a try due to having to make a decision
>on whether or not to get a new insulin pump (he ditched
>the Lantus and went with the new Cozmo)
you are making a lot of assumptions.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
…Theodore Roosevelt
(o o)
–ooO-(_)-Ooo——————–
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>>> also pumping allows for a much more active lifestyle than MDI.
>>> A great advantage for kids.
>> I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
>> swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
>> thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
>> for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
>> In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
>> contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
>> I do the 5 MDI thing and have every intention of keeping it that way.
>> To me, that is a far better alternative than trying to run a race or
>> play a sport with with the added weight and annoyance of a pump
>> constantly attached to me.
>i took the liberty of looking at some of your
>past posts; specifically the 5-15-’04 thread
>"High BS from running hard"
>am i correct in thinking that you (i.e. Radioactive Man):
>1. are a t1?
>2. have never used an insulin pump?
>>>>>> What about the evidence from non-pumping kids? From MDIers and SDIers.
>>>>>> I started off on just one jab per day, and I’m thankful for that now.
>>>>>> It was difficult enought coping with just that one.
>>>>> when I was diagnosed at 8 years old 1 shot a day would not have
>>>>> covered my body’s needs.
>i find that hard to believe
>the trick for a t1 in getting a workable
>1x routine is to be using a background insulin
>that has enough residual beyond 24 and there
>are several different ways to do that (but
>"human"-NPH isn’t one of them); the one
>proviso i’ll add is that those t1′s who have
>dawn phenomena (i.e. high b/g values at some
>point in the morning) would have to use a main
>morning shot and a 2nd shot to specifically
>address their high morning b/g values
>>>>> I started out using NPH and R taking 4 shots per day and over the years
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"human"-NPH and "human"-R?
>>>>> have increased the shot frequency upwards of 6 to 8 per day using
>>>>> better insulins and better regimes for tighter control.
>>>> NPH isn’t a long lasting insulin.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>agreed, especially if it is "human"-NPH (which i’ve never used).
>pork-NPH has a little more residual at the 24 hour mark, but
>not that much more. only beef-NPH has decent residual at
>24 hours and is a pretty good true 1x insulin for a t1
>>>> With Lente you might well have managed
>>>> on one per day. _If_ that had been important to your parents and doctor.
>>> actually NPH is a long acting insulin. and was and still is commonly
>>> used as a basal. as far as Lente and the other 2 similar to it, it
>>> probably had a lot more to do with it coming from a non US company as
>>> to it being well known and the level of diabetes knowledge at that
>>> time. we are talking 30 years ago. But when I tried them a few years
>>> back they were not what they were promoted to be any more than Lantus
>>> has lived up to it’s advertising. I haven’t found a single basal
>>> insulin that lasts a full 24 hours. When I can get my hands on the
>>> new one that just came out I will see if that works.
>> And that is exactly why I have to inject basal insulin twice per day –
>> 20 units of ultralente in the morning (around 5 am on weekdays) and 11
>> units of lente at bedtime. I started off just using Lantus at
>> bedtime, but that caused high blood sugars in the afternoon. Since I
>> ended paying out of pocket for the Lantus, I quickly decided it wasn’t
>> worth the high price if I had to inject it twice per day.
>maybe that dosing of your "human"-UL works for you,
>but it’s nowhere close to flat for your background
>assuming you’re a t1 (if you’re t2, it’s likely that
>you’re a lot less sensitive to background insulin
>variation due to you still having fair amounts
>of endogenous insulin), you’d get flatter background
>action from your 2x of "human"-UL by a) taking equal
>amounts and b) keeping closer to 12 hour spacing
>(say 5:00AM and 6:00PM)
>the reason to stay with equal amounts is that it’s
>too hard to keep the UL shot timing to 12 hours
>(forgetting to take the 2nd UL shot, and especially
>when you sleep in on the weekends)
>if you don’t have much of a morning b/g rise, you might even
>dose your "human"-UL 1x upon rising; it peaks at roughly
>14 hours with 1x dosing and is not flat in the 14-to-26 hour
>period, but if your morning basal needs are minimal then
>chances are you’d find 1x of "human"-UL to be more convenient;
>i know that i was using 2x of pork-Lente this past 12+ months
>(it’s best to think of L taken 1x as 2 separate shots:
>70% UL and 30% SL), but recently went back to dosing it
>1x upon rising (i dose for the UL content, and pay attention
>to the UL action in the 12-to-26 hour period, knowing that
>i’ll have to eat for the 30% SL roughly in the 5-to-12 hour
>time period)
>one thing that both oldal and i have found is that when you
>get close to the end of a vial of UL (or L when you dose 1x
>with L) you need to up the UL amounts slightly (say 10% in
>the last 1/3 of the vial, and maybe as much as 20% at the
>end of the vial)
>bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI
Mack® wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:05:16 -0600, willbill … (wrote):
>> imho, t1 kids who pump are a poor source of info on pumps
>> for the simple reason that they don’t have enough experience
>> with doing different routines with different insulins and
>> different eating patterns
> the original questions were about quality of life while pumping verses
> MDI. so if you want to know about kids pumping you need to talk to
> kids who are pumping. anything else and all you get is guess work.
my quality of life is better since i ditched the pump. :)
but it’s been a while since i was a kid. :)
i did get one key thing from using an insulin pump
and that was good insight into what my basal needs
really are, which is something that i recommend
any *adult* t1 doing for a few years
anyhow, do you have any children?
if you do and if one of them was type-1 diabetic,
would you really want them using an insulin pump?
if i had a t1 child, i wouldn’t want them using
an insulin pump coz i know that they can as well
(or even better) without a pump than they can with
a pump; not to mention that it’s easier and way
more convenient and less risky (and way less expensive)
for any t1 (child or adult) without a pump
it does take more than 2 or 3 years to figure that
out (after ditching the pump (after prolonged usage))
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>> one t1, who posts here and has now pumped
>> for several years (5?), is Coughran; roughly
>> 12 or 18 months ago he set his MM (507?) pump aside
>> to try an MDI routine with Lantus for background
>> afaik, prior to pump usage he used an MDI routine
>> with "human"-UL and "human"-R. afaik#2, Coughran
>> has never used either beef insulin nor pork insulin
>> frankly, i was surprised that coughran was willing
>> to use the weirdest insulin yet created (i.e. Lantus),
>> but not willing to give beef-Lente a try; but he’s
>> a dyed-in-the-wool science guy, and likely rejects
>> out of hand that the old insulins are better than
>> the modern synthetic insulins. i’m assuming that he
>> gave Lantus a try due to having to make a decision
>> on whether or not to get a new insulin pump (he ditched
>> the Lantus and went with the new Cozmo)
> you are making a lot of assumptions.
nothing wrong with making assumptions. :)
maybe it will get Coughran off his ass. :)
bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI
Randy Sigman <rsig…@pcnet5.pcnet.com> wrote on Mon, 29 Nov 2004
18:00:00 GMT:
> Radioactive Man <1…@2.3> wrote:
>> I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
>> swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
>> thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
>> for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
>> In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
>> contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
> This is untrue. Perhaps you are only thinking of the Minimed pump which
> used to be authorized for underwater usage, but is no longer. They can
> be used when enclosed in sport packs designed for underwater usage,
> however. Some other pump brands do not require such enclosures and can
> work as simply as strapping them on so they don’t fall off while
> underwater.
You’re kind of missing the point. Yes, you can get by with the thing in
a special pouch for underwater use, and yes, it’s not _that_ heavy, and
yes you can (must) make all sorts of other accomodations in your life to
keep the thing strapped to you. But having something continuously
strapped to you and poking into you is, by its very nature, a degradation
of life quality. Possibly a severe degradation.
The question is, is that loss of quality of life less than that caused by
the disadvantages of discrete insulin injections? As an adult diabetic,
one can decide on the pump, try it out, and give it up if it doesn’t
suit. A pre-school child doesn’t have that option – he must simply do as
he’s told. If the pump _doesn’t_ suit him, for any reason, the
psychological damage caused by having to wear it could be immense, with
life-long consequences.
Hence my point, this study mentioned by the OP is dubious, since there
appears to have been no psychological evaluation of the children.
–
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: a…@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Randy Sigman wrote:
>> Radioactive Man <1…@2.3> wrote:
>>> I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
>>> swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
>>> thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
>>> for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
>>> In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
>>> contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
>> This is untrue. Perhaps you are only thinking of the Minimed pump which
>> used to be authorized for underwater usage, but is no longer. They can
>> be used when enclosed in sport packs designed for underwater usage,
>> however. Some other pump brands do not require such enclosures and can
>> work as simply as strapping them on so they don’t fall off while
>> underwater.
> You’re kind of missing the point. Yes, you can get by with the thing in
> a special pouch for underwater use, and yes, it’s not _that_ heavy, and
> yes you can (must) make all sorts of other accomodations in your life to
> keep the thing strapped to you. But having something continuously
> strapped to you and poking into you is, by its very nature,
> a degradation of life quality.
> Possibly a severe degradation.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
agreed in spades
> The question is, is that loss of quality of life less than that caused by
> the disadvantages of discrete insulin injections? As an adult diabetic,
> one can decide on the pump, try it out, and give it up if it doesn’t
> suit. A pre-school child doesn’t have that option – he must simply do as
> he’s told. If the pump _doesn’t_ suit him, for any reason, the
> psychological damage caused by having to wear it could be immense, with
> life-long consequences.
> Hence my point, this study mentioned by the OP is dubious, since there
> appears to have been no psychological evaluation of the children.
it’s not clear to me who the OP (Dumbo) is, nor whether
he/she is t1 or t2 (if diabetic), or the parent of
a t1 diabetic, or what…
bill t1 since ’57
willbill <t…@worldwide.net> wrote in news:coiflm02av7
@enews3.newsguy.com:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Mack® wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:05:16 -0600, willbill … (wrote):
>>> imho, t1 kids who pump are a poor source of info on pumps
>>> for the simple reason that they don’t have enough experience
>>> with doing different routines with different insulins and
>>> different eating patterns
>> the original questions were about quality of life while pumping verses
>> MDI. so if you want to know about kids pumping you need to talk to
>> kids who are pumping. anything else and all you get is guess work.
> my quality of life is better since i ditched the pump. :)
> but it’s been a while since i was a kid. :)
> i did get one key thing from using an insulin pump
> and that was good insight into what my basal needs
> really are, which is something that i recommend
> any *adult* t1 doing for a few years
> anyhow, do you have any children?
> if you do and if one of them was type-1 diabetic,
> would you really want them using an insulin pump?
> if i had a t1 child, i wouldn’t want them using
> an insulin pump coz i know that they can as well
> (or even better) without a pump than they can with
> a pump; not to mention that it’s easier and way
> more convenient and less risky (and way less expensive)
> for any t1 (child or adult) without a pump
> it does take more than 2 or 3 years to figure that
> out (after ditching the pump (after prolonged usage))
>>> one t1, who posts here and has now pumped
>>> for several years (5?), is Coughran; roughly
>>> 12 or 18 months ago he set his MM (507?) pump aside
>>> to try an MDI routine with Lantus for background
>>> afaik, prior to pump usage he used an MDI routine
>>> with "human"-UL and "human"-R. afaik#2, Coughran
>>> has never used either beef insulin nor pork insulin
>>> frankly, i was surprised that coughran was willing
>>> to use the weirdest insulin yet created (i.e. Lantus),
>>> but not willing to give beef-Lente a try; but he’s
>>> a dyed-in-the-wool science guy, and likely rejects
>>> out of hand that the old insulins are better than
>>> the modern synthetic insulins. i’m assuming that he
>>> gave Lantus a try due to having to make a decision
>>> on whether or not to get a new insulin pump (he ditched
>>> the Lantus and went with the new Cozmo)
>> you are making a lot of assumptions.
> nothing wrong with making assumptions. :)
> maybe it will get Coughran off his ass. :)
> bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI
This is not a thread I have been reading since I don’t know jack about
kid and pumps, but this post showed up as an isolated post for some
reason so I scanned it. To set the record straight:
I’ve been pumping for around 5 years. I didn’t go back to MDI due to any
dissatisfaction with pumping, I was in a clinical trial comparing
novolog/lantus to novolog in a pump. (Based on my limited, three week
trial, Lantus is flatter and longer acting than human UL, but I would
have to split it into 2 shots/day anyway as I am a fast absorber.)I
switched to the Cozmo after my 507C died more because I don’t like the
changes at MiniMed since the buy out than for any technical reasons.
I do, indeed, strongly belive in following where the data goes. The data
clearly shows a tremendous inter patient variability in insulin activity
profiles. All insulins have positive and negative aspects in all
patients and the trade offs can work out quite differently patient to
patient.
I have said many times in this forum that the golden rule of diabetes is
to find out what works for you and do it. If beef insulin works for you,
then it is the best insulin for you. I have argued here that diabetics
should have access to the widest possible variety of insulins. On the
other hand, I have also argued that the over generalization of personal
experience underlies much of the inappropriate advice and argument on
m.h.d. There are no panaceas and nothing is right for everybody.
I have never used beef or pork insulin, except for a few shots when first
diagnosed because the pharmacy mis-filled my first prescription. This was
not based on any aversion to animal based insulins, it just never came up
in my journey through various insulin regimens until I wound up pumping.
Again, for the record, my last regimen before pumping was human UL and
Humalog, but I did UL and R before that.
I try not to reject anything out of hand.
–
——-
Charly Coughran
ccough…@DELETE-TO-RESPOND-UCSD.EDU
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:45:25 -0600, willbill <t…@worldwide.net>
Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Mack® wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:05:16 -0600, willbill … (wrote):
>>> imho, t1 kids who pump are a poor source of info on pumps
>>> for the simple reason that they don’t have enough experience
>>> with doing different routines with different insulins and
>>> different eating patterns
>> the original questions were about quality of life while pumping verses
>> MDI. so if you want to know about kids pumping you need to talk to
>> kids who are pumping. anything else and all you get is guess work.
>my quality of life is better since i ditched the pump. :)
>but it’s been a while since i was a kid. :)
>i did get one key thing from using an insulin pump
>and that was good insight into what my basal needs
>really are, which is something that i recommend
>any *adult* t1 doing for a few years
>anyhow, do you have any children?
I wore one as a child, did you?
>if you do and if one of them was type-1 diabetic,
>would you really want them using an insulin pump?
yes.
>if i had a t1 child, i wouldn’t want them using
>an insulin pump coz i know that they can as well
>(or even better) without a pump than they can with
>a pump; not to mention that it’s easier and way
>more convenient and less risky (and way less expensive)
>for any t1 (child or adult) without a pump
the only completely factual thing you stated above was the reference
to cost.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>it does take more than 2 or 3 years to figure that
>out (after ditching the pump (after prolonged usage))
>>> one t1, who posts here and has now pumped
>>> for several years (5?), is Coughran; roughly
>>> 12 or 18 months ago he set his MM (507?) pump aside
>>> to try an MDI routine with Lantus for background
>>> afaik, prior to pump usage he used an MDI routine
>>> with "human"-UL and "human"-R. afaik#2, Coughran
>>> has never used either beef insulin nor pork insulin
>>> frankly, i was surprised that coughran was willing
>>> to use the weirdest insulin yet created (i.e. Lantus),
>>> but not willing to give beef-Lente a try; but he’s
>>> a dyed-in-the-wool science guy, and likely rejects
>>> out of hand that the old insulins are better than
>>> the modern synthetic insulins. i’m assuming that he
>>> gave Lantus a try due to having to make a decision
>>> on whether or not to get a new insulin pump (he ditched
>>> the Lantus and went with the new Cozmo)
>> you are making a lot of assumptions.
>nothing wrong with making assumptions. :)
oh there are plenty of things wrong with it under many conditions.
this being one of them.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
…Theodore Roosevelt
(o o)
–ooO-(_)-Ooo——————–
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>maybe it will get Coughran off his ass. :)
>bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:21:13 +0000, Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de>
Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Randy Sigman <rsig…@pcnet5.pcnet.com> wrote on Mon, 29 Nov 2004
>18:00:00 GMT:
>> Radioactive Man <1…@2.3> wrote:
>>> I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
>>> swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
>>> thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
>>> for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
>>> In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
>>> contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
>> This is untrue. Perhaps you are only thinking of the Minimed pump which
>> used to be authorized for underwater usage, but is no longer. They can
>> be used when enclosed in sport packs designed for underwater usage,
>> however. Some other pump brands do not require such enclosures and can
>> work as simply as strapping them on so they don’t fall off while
>> underwater.
>You’re kind of missing the point. Yes, you can get by with the thing in
>a special pouch for underwater use, and yes, it’s not _that_ heavy, and
>yes you can (must) make all sorts of other accomodations in your life to
>keep the thing strapped to you. But having something continuously
>strapped to you and poking into you is, by its very nature, a degradation
>of life quality. Possibly a severe degradation.
it’s as simple as wearing an elastic band attached with velcro to your
leg with a small pouch sown to the strap to hold the pump. it’s
obvious that you are not talking from personal experience and that you
are guessing. It also appears that you are trying to convince
yourself that it would be a bad thing before trying it out. a perfect
example of setting one’s self up to fail.
>The question is, is that loss of quality of life less than that caused by
>the disadvantages of discrete insulin injections? As an adult diabetic,
>one can decide on the pump, try it out, and give it up if it doesn’t
>suit. A pre-school child doesn’t have that option – he must simply do as
>he’s told. If the pump _doesn’t_ suit him, for any reason, the
>psychological damage caused by having to wear it could be immense, with
>life-long consequences.
why do you put so much emphasis on being discreet about injections?
just take the damn shot, where ever and when ever you need to and get
on with it.
and no children are not left without a choice when it comes to
pumping. unless of course the parent is by their nature an abusive
parent. But if that were the case, they would never invest the money
in the child in the first place.
with as many kids as there that have grown up pumping you should be
able to pull at least 1 real life example of a child that has suffered
psychological damage. But you can’t can you?
>Hence my point, this study mentioned by the OP is dubious, since there
>appears to have been no psychological evaluation of the children.
you honestly think that with as many children that are pumping and
have been pumping that this hasn’t been looked into?
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
…Theodore Roosevelt
(o o)
–ooO-(_)-Ooo——————–
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Charly Coughran wrote:
> willbill <t…@worldwide.net> wrote in news:coiflm02av7
> @enews3.newsguy.com:
>>Mack® wrote:
>>>On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:05:16 -0600, willbill … (wrote):
>>>>imho, t1 kids who pump are a poor source of info on pumps
>>>>for the simple reason that they don’t have enough experience
>>>>with doing different routines with different insulins and
>>>>different eating patterns
>>>the original questions were about quality of life while pumping verses
>>>MDI. so if you want to know about kids pumping you need to talk to
>>>kids who are pumping. anything else and all you get is guess work.
>>my quality of life is better since i ditched the pump. :)
>>but it’s been a while since i was a kid. :)
>>i did get one key thing from using an insulin pump
>>and that was good insight into what my basal needs
>>really are, which is something that i recommend
>>any *adult* t1 doing for a few years
>>anyhow, do you have any children?
>>if you do and if one of them was type-1 diabetic,
>>would you really want them using an insulin pump?
>>if i had a t1 child, i wouldn’t want them using
>>an insulin pump coz i know that they can as well
>>(or even better) without a pump than they can with
>>a pump; not to mention that it’s easier and way
>>more convenient and less risky (and way less expensive)
>>for any t1 (child or adult) without a pump
>>it does take more than 2 or 3 years to figure that
>>out (after ditching the pump (after prolonged usage))
>>>>one t1, who posts here and has now pumped
>>>>for several years (5?), is Coughran; roughly
>>>>12 or 18 months ago he set his MM (507?) pump aside
>>>>to try an MDI routine with Lantus for background
>>>>afaik, prior to pump usage he used an MDI routine
>>>>with "human"-UL and "human"-R. afaik#2, Coughran
>>>>has never used either beef insulin nor pork insulin
>>>>frankly, i was surprised that coughran was willing
>>>>to use the weirdest insulin yet created (i.e. Lantus),
>>>>but not willing to give beef-Lente a try; but he’s
>>>>a dyed-in-the-wool science guy, and likely rejects
>>>>out of hand that the old insulins are better than
>>>>the modern synthetic insulins. i’m assuming that he
>>>>gave Lantus a try due to having to make a decision
>>>>on whether or not to get a new insulin pump (he ditched
>>>>the Lantus and went with the new Cozmo)
>>>you are making a lot of assumptions.
>>nothing wrong with making assumptions. :)
>>maybe it will get Coughran off his ass. :)
>>bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI
> This is not a thread I have been reading since I don’t know jack about
> kid and pumps, but this post showed up as an isolated post for some
> reason so I scanned it. To set the record straight:
> I’ve been pumping for around 5 years. I didn’t go back to MDI due to any
> dissatisfaction with pumping, I was in a clinical trial comparing
> novolog/lantus to novolog in a pump. (Based on my limited, three week
> trial, Lantus is flatter and longer acting than human UL, but I would
> have to split it into 2 shots/day anyway as I am a fast absorber.)I
> switched to the Cozmo after my 507C died more because I don’t like the
> changes at MiniMed since the buy out than for any technical reasons.
> I do, indeed, strongly belive in following where the data goes. The data
> clearly shows a tremendous inter patient variability in insulin activity
> profiles. All insulins have positive and negative aspects in all
> patients and the trade offs can work out quite differently patient to
> patient.
> I have said many times in this forum that the golden rule of diabetes is
> to find out what works for you and do it. If beef insulin works for you,
> then it is the best insulin for you. I have argued here that diabetics
> should have access to the widest possible variety of insulins. On the
> other hand, I have also argued that the over generalization of personal
> experience underlies much of the inappropriate advice and argument on
> m.h.d. There are no panaceas and nothing is right for everybody.
> I have never used beef or pork insulin, except for a few shots when first
> diagnosed because the pharmacy mis-filled my first prescription. This was
> not based on any aversion to animal based insulins, it just never came up
> in my journey through various insulin regimens until I wound up pumping.
> Again, for the record, my last regimen before pumping was human UL and
> Humalog, but I did UL and R before that.
> I try not to reject anything out of hand.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
if true, that’s admirable. :)
btw, how long have you used insulin for?
to keep this on topic, if you had
a t1 child would you have them use
an insulin pump?
if yes, kindly give reasons why
if no, kindly give reasons why not.
and especially what kind of routine
would you have the child do?
you know my opinion on this (stated/quoted
at the top of this post, but not what i’d have
the t1 child do)
i’m also interested in what your "normal"
basal rates are for the 24 hour day
i remember that you’ve stated that you
use 2 different basal rates depending on
whether you’re at home and running, or
at work (at sea?) and not running
i personally don’t use much insulin and when
last pumping (’98) my basal was about 8u/day
(using a buffered "human"-R insulin)
roughly: .3u/hr 9AM-3AM
and .4u/hr 3AM-9AM
what i’d really like for *my* background is U40
beef-Lente. afaik it’s available in India.
CP’s (UK) beef-L is U100 (as was USA Lilly’s Iletin-I)
fwiw, my 1x of L (95/5 pork/beef) this morning was
)
at 8:35AM with a b/g of 69 (previous bedtime was 108
with last meal at 3:45PM yesterday). i ate nothing and
had a large cup of black coffee (French pressed whole bean
Sumatra). went shopping/walking and at 10:20AM my b/g
was 92. put 150 lbs of gravel on the entrance roadway
at 11:20AM. at 11:40AM my b/g was 114 and still had
had nothing other than the black coffee and a small
bit of water. at 2:05PM my b/g was 61 (takes the 30%
SL roughly 5 or 6 hours to show up (the slow b/g rise
was likely due to my normal late morning dump of
"growth" hormones coz i didn’t eat much protein or fat
the previous night)), and i finally ate a small amount
for the low b/g and small amount of SL action.
at 4:10PM i took my single meal shot of pure pork-R
and later ate (some days i take 2 meal shots of pork-R
(i normally use slow beef-R as a bedtime correction)).
10:25PM b/g = 56 and ate some frozen blueberries (yummy
if i’m out with someone and need to eat (to be polite)
but don’t have any active insulin (above basal), i have
a simple salad (NO protein) with olive oil and vinegar
and if my b/g is ok some lemon juice squeezed from
lemon quarters
TIA, bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Mack® wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:45:25 -0600, willbill … (wrote):
>> Mack® wrote:
>>> the original questions were about quality of life while pumping verses
>>> MDI. so if you want to know about kids pumping you need to talk to
>>> kids who are pumping. anything else and all you get is guess work.
>> my quality of life is better since i ditched the pump. :)
>> but it’s been a while since i was a kid. :)
>> i did get one key thing from using an insulin pump
>> and that was good insight into what my basal needs
>> really are, which is something that i recommend
>> any *adult* t1 doing for a few years
>> anyhow, do you have any children?
> I wore one as a child, did you?
ah; interesting
and no, when i got diabetes insulin pumps
did not exist. i did a true 1x as a kid
in ’57, likely with beef insulin (PZI?).
the impurities were bad at that time and
i remember that my legs looked like i was
wearing football pants. :(
a few of the long term t1s here remember
their "problems" with beef insulin and
more than once i’ve seen "been there,
done that" and then they venture off
into never never land with an even
weirder insulin named Lantus. :(
went to a fixed 2x routine using pure
pork Lente 2x (and some pork R) roughly
about 1970
my best endo ever delegated insulin
choice/responsibility to his CDE who switched
me to 2x of pork-NPH roughly at 1980.
hindsight makes me believe that that
is the key thing that caused me occasional
unconscious hypos during the 1980′s. :(
which is what got me to using the bloody
insulin pump 1991 thru 1998. 6+ years with
buffered "human"-R, then 1 year with Humalog
(aka lispro) which is also buffered (sly of the
Lilly lizards to do that with lispro), then
6 months of an unbuffered mix of Iletin-I and
Iletin-II R (not easy to use unbuffered R with
5 day site times and 20u of R/day! (basal+; meaning
that i did most of my meal R via syringe in
order to make the cartridge last about 15 days))
at least i didn’t have any unconscious hypos
with the pump. :)
but the synthetic insulin was crap but i didn’t
know it at the time. it only took a few days of
using the Iletin R mix in the pump to show that.
also at roughly 10 weeks i noticed that i felt
better overall, a *lot* better. :)
the clincer is that i’ve not had any serious colds
since i switched away from the crap synthetic insulin
whereas i’d been getting one (and one year two) serious
cough cold each winter (in mild weathered Los Angeles)
>> if you do and if one of them was type-1 diabetic,
>> would you really want them using an insulin pump?
> yes.
>> if i had a t1 child, i wouldn’t want them using
>> an insulin pump coz i know that they can as well
>> (or even better) without a pump than they can with
>> a pump; not to mention that it’s easier and way
>> more convenient and less risky (and way less expensive)
>> for any t1 (child or adult) without a pump
> the only completely factual thing you stated above was the reference
> to cost.
so you don’t have any children, right?
you also have serious diabetic complications, right?
what other meds do you take besides insulin?
bill t1 since ’57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:57:59 -0600, willbill <t…@worldwide.net>
Screamed something into the void that sounded like:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Mack® wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:45:25 -0600, willbill … (wrote):
>>> Mack® wrote:
>>>> the original questions were about quality of life while pumping verses
>>>> MDI. so if you want to know about kids pumping you need to talk to
>>>> kids who are pumping. anything else and all you get is guess work.
>>> my quality of life is better since i ditched the pump. :)
>>> but it’s been a while since i was a kid. :)
>>> i did get one key thing from using an insulin pump
>>> and that was good insight into what my basal needs
>>> really are, which is something that i recommend
>>> any *adult* t1 doing for a few years
>>> anyhow, do you have any children?
>> I wore one as a child, did you?
>ah; interesting
>and no, when i got diabetes insulin pumps
>did not exist.
Then all you can say complete honesty about kids pumping is that you
are guessing.
thanks for playing.
next contestant please.
Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
…Theodore Roosevelt
(o o)
–ooO-(_)-Ooo——————–
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Alan Mackenzie <a…@muc.de> wrote:
> Randy Sigman <rsig…@pcnet5.pcnet.com> wrote on Mon, 29 Nov 2004
> 18:00:00 GMT:
>> Radioactive Man <1…@2.3> wrote:
>>> I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
>>> swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
>>> thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
>>> for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
>>> In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
>>> contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
>> This is untrue. Perhaps you are only thinking of the Minimed pump which
>> used to be authorized for underwater usage, but is no longer. They can
>> be used when enclosed in sport packs designed for underwater usage,
>> however. Some other pump brands do not require such enclosures and can
>> work as simply as strapping them on so they don’t fall off while
>> underwater.
> You’re kind of missing the point. Yes, you can get by with the thing in
> a special pouch for underwater use, and yes, it’s not _that_ heavy, and
> yes you can (must) make all sorts of other accomodations in your life to
> keep the thing strapped to you. But having something continuously
> strapped to you and poking into you is, by its very nature, a degradation
> of life quality. Possibly a severe degradation.
I was merely trying to set the record straight for anyone who was unaware that
these things can, in fact be done. As to whether a pump strapped to one’s body
constitutes a degradation of life quality is a matter of opinion. The
true degradation of life quality is the disease itself. Pumps today are quite
small, and fairly innocuous looking. For myself, the pump has been quite the
opposite from what you’ve described.
> The question is, is that loss of quality of life less than that caused by
> the disadvantages of discrete insulin injections? As an adult diabetic,
> one can decide on the pump, try it out, and give it up if it doesn’t
> suit. A pre-school child doesn’t have that option – he must simply do as
> he’s told. If the pump _doesn’t_ suit him, for any reason, the
> psychological damage caused by having to wear it could be immense, with
> life-long consequences.
This would be a bridge I have not had to cross myself. I have no diabetic
children, and am happy not to have to make the decision. I guess that each
case would have to be determined on its own merits.
> Hence my point, this study mentioned by the OP is dubious, since there
> appears to have been no psychological evaluation of the children.
I didn’t read the study referenced, so I cannot comment on it.
Best,
Randy
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Randy Sigman <rsig…@pcnet5.pcnet.com> wrote on Mon, 29 Nov 2004
> 18:00:00 GMT:
>>Radioactive Man <1…@2.3> wrote:
>>>I doubt that. One cannot attach a pump to a swimsuit and then go
>>>swimming. All you can do is detach the tube thing from the infusion
>>>thing and go without basal insulin while you swim. If you ever swim
>>>for 2 hours like I sometimes do, that could get you in real trouble.
>>>In addition, a pump is very likely to get destroyed or damaged by
>>>contact sports, or dropped on the floor when changing clothes, etc.
>>This is untrue. Perhaps you are only thinking of the Minimed pump which
>>used to be authorized for underwater usage, but is no longer. They can
>>be used when enclosed in sport packs designed for underwater usage,
>>however. Some other pump brands do not require such enclosures and can
>>work as simply as strapping them on so they don’t fall off while
>>underwater.
> You’re kind of missing the point. Yes, you can get by with the thing in
> a special pouch for underwater use, and yes, it’s not _that_ heavy, and
> yes you can (must) make all sorts of other accomodations in your life to
> keep the thing strapped to you. But having something continuously
> strapped to you and poking into you is, by its very nature, a degradation
> of life quality. Possibly a severe degradation.
> The question is, is that loss of quality of life less than that caused by
> the disadvantages of discrete insulin injections? As an adult diabetic,
> one can decide on the pump, try it out, and give it up if it doesn’t
> suit. A pre-school child doesn’t have that option – he must simply do as
> he’s told. If the pump _doesn’t_ suit him, for any reason, the
> psychological damage caused by having to wear it could be immense, with
> life-long consequences.
> Hence my point, this study mentioned by the OP is dubious, since there
> appears to have been no psychological evaluation of the children.
Why on EARTH are you assuming that every child should get the same
treatment?
A couple of people have asked "If you had a child with Type I would you
want him/her on a pump?" I can think of one of my kids I would probably
want on a pump, another definitely not, and the other two I’m not sure.
In any case I would ASK the kids about it. On this NG there are
people who tried a pump and hated it and people who aboslutely love
their pump. Gee, do you think the same MIGHT be true of kids?
As you can tell, this "one size fits all children" idea is one of my pet
peeves. It’s one of the things I really hate about recent trends in
education in the US.